The Wreck, Section 4

12-29-2009, 05:10 PM – beckley23 

Dave,
Thanks for the tip on the Loctite. The shim slipping is a concern, but in the past when I’ve done that, I haven’t noticed any problems like you describe.
Refitting the gibs is always a problem. In the past, I’ve been able to set the cross slide or the saddle up on the mill and take a small amount off one of the dovetail faces, and epoxy Multifil onto the gib, or the cross slide. That option just didn’t seem to be viable this time.
Harry

12-30-2009, 05:34 PM – beckley23 

The first 2 pictures are of the carriage’s new plumbing, and may the plumbing gods have mercy if I ever have to get back in there. The blue stuff at the ends of the tubing is RTV to seal up the holes, latex caulk will be used to bed the lines, after the RTV has cured. All the lines had air blown thriugh them before final connection to the manifold. I tried to be workman like in this installation, but this copper has a mind of its own. A hammer and pin punch came in handy, enforcing the copper to do what I wanted, and a few new words were invented.
The next 3 pictures are of the measuring process to see how much to mill off the V and flat slides before epoxing the Multifil 426 to build up the saddle to “original” height. The first is the most critical. I couldn’t use the headstock end because the slides groove was/is resting on top of the V way, and gave a funny reading. I tried to use several different techniques to measure, planer and shaper gauge, surface gauge and DTI, but I was getting incinsistent readings. The 1-2-3 block and small angle plate gave the most dependable results. Ordinarily, I would have used a height gauge, like I did on the SE 60, but I don’t have a small enough height gauge.
The saddle is high at the right rear and the lowest at front left. The other 2 corners are in between. In addition the saddle is low in front by approx .025″ over the bed ways, as checked with the level. I thought that number rather excessive, but ran some numbers and it seems more reasonable. Be that as it is, I still have to work with what is.
The first picture is the 1-2-3 block set up.
The bar was used to measure at both ends of the V slide to confirm the level readings. It was a crude measurement with a dial caliper to the top of the saddle.
I also checked the end to end wear of the flat slide from the back side of the saddle with a depth micrometer.
I do have question about the roller gib bracket pockets; Are these for felt wipers?

Harry

12-30-2009, 05:39 PM – rkepler

Originally Posted by beckley23
I do have question about the roller gib bracket pockets; Are these for felt wipers?

Yup, hard little suckers. I could send you a couple, I ordered one per hole and some holes only took half of one.

12-30-2009, 05:58 PM – Cal Haines

Harry,I like your gaging method. I had been thinking about how to do that and I think you’ve nailed it.How parallel is the front V-way to the leadscrew?Cal

12-30-2009, 07:44 PM – m.k.millwork

thanks Harry

Harry,Been following this thread from the beginning more or less along with “another new toy” . Just want to thank you for all the information and photos you take the time to post. I have learned a lot from you as have many others on this forum. I am sure I speak for a lot of others when I say I really enjoy your posts and eagerly await each update. Can’t wait to see it totally finished….. the new toy turned out great. I’m sure it’s little brother will too.Have a good one.Mark

12-30-2009, 08:52 PM – beckley23

Russ,
Send ’em on. If you need my address, let me know.Cal,
I missed a neat little height gauge at an auction about 10 years ago. This would have been the ideal time for it, but it went for way more than I thought it was worth.
The leadscrew parallelism is within .003″ vertically; horizontally, I’ll have to check.Mark,
I’m glad you are enjoying the write up. I knew what I was getting into when I started this project, though there has been a surprise, or two.
Harry

12-31-2009, 02:07 AM – rimcanyon

some holes only took half of one.

They are hard to insert but there is a trick. If you compress them in a vise first they drop right in place and will expand back in a few minutes.

-Dave

01-11-2010, 05:33 PM – beckley23

Set the saddle up on the mill to make room for the Multifil 426. The saddle is .025″ higher in the rear than the front. I’ve also got to raise the front approx .025″ for alignment with the leadscrew. The plan is take off .025″ approx from the rear flat slide, and to take a suitable amount from the V slide so that I have approx .006- .008″ scraping stock and at the same time build its height approx .025″ when finished.. The vertical height build up of the Multifil is approx .067″, epoxy adhesive included, I’m .030″ thick material. It gets a bit confusing, and it me 2 tries at the V slide to get it right, I think. I think I doulbe counted something in the math, but all I need now is some warmer weather so that the overnight shop temperature doesn’t get under 40*F. It’s a waiting game now.Indicating the saddle to the X axis. This alignment was checked on 3 vertical surfaces, the other 2 are the rear verticals of the saddle, which served as the primary surfaces.
The rear flat slide has already been milled, and this is the set up for the inside face of the front V slide. Tried shorter end mill but ran into interference problems with the spindle, and/or chuck hitting the saddle bridge brace. Had to settle for 5/8″ D 4″ LOC end mill. It was a talker.
The outside face was much quieter.

Harry

01-12-2010, 06:31 PM – WHHJR

Perhaps those funny shaped marks will give the epoxy something to chew on….

01-15-2010, 05:35 PM – beckley23 

The shop temperature this morning was 47*, much better than the 32* it was for the past few days. Today was a good day to take care of the epoxing business, especially since the weather forecast for the next few days will be lows in the 40’s.
First order of this procedure was to get the casting and the shop warmed up to over 60*. Took about 2-1/2 hours, in the meantime I made the necessary preparations; cut the Multifil 426, scratched up the slide faces for a better gripping surface for the epoxy, and gave the faces a good cleaning.
For those of not familiar with Multifil 426, and I’m sure Turcite and Rulon are very similar, it is a teflon material that is impregnated with bronze, and is treated on one side, that wets with water, to accept adhesive. The epoxy adhesive I’ve been using is 3M 2216 B/A Gray. It has a pot life of 1-1/2 hrs at 72*, and takes about 18, or so, hours to fully cure. Whether or not it cures at this rate at lower temperatures, I’ll soon find out. When I left tonight, the shop was at approx 75*, and the casting was a bit warmer, but will change shortly, as I don’t leave the heat on. I test the progress of the cure with by trying to penetrate the left over epoxy with a scriber. I could depress the scriber in the epoxy, but it didn’t penetrate, and left no mark. So I may in luck tomorrow.The scratching was done with the corner of a hand scraper. The oil holes have been plugged with lightly greased rods. I had the wood form block made when I did my other EE’s saddle, and fortunately I kept them. Never thought I would use them again.
Now it’s a matter of time, waiting for the epoxy to cure. For once my 6000 watt heater is used for something besides warming my backside. The Coke can has the left over epoxy, that gets tested with the scriber for penetration. It’ll be fully cured when I can’t force the scriber into it.

Harry

01-15-2010, 06:17 PM – DaveE907 

In a cold shop a cardboard box over the work with an incandescent light bulb inside it has been a useful and inexpensive way to keep curing paint and adhesives warm. Keep the bulb away from the interior surfaces of the box.An old chemistry rule of thumb is reaction rate doubles for each 10 deg C (18 deg F) rise in temperature. The converse is true also.

01-16-2010, 02:58 PM – beckley23 

Dave,
Completely forgot about the lightbulb and box idea, but I did add a little extra hardener to the mix yesterday, which seemed to help.Checked the saddle this AM, shop temperature was 52*. The scriber would barely penetrate, maybe a 1/64″, yesterday it was going in approx 1/8″. I think by Monday, things will be good to go.
Harry

01-16-2010, 07:55 PM – rimcanyon 

Harry, great description and pictures of your progress. I am really enjoying watching from the sidelines. One question regarding the multifil application: why did you use the wood forms rather than put the saddle on the bed and let the bed ways do the job?-Dave

01-16-2010, 08:20 PM – beckley23 

Never thought of it. There are several situations that would have to be taken care of before hand. The oil holes will need plugging, and a release agent would have to be on the bed. I don’t think wax paper would be a good release agent in that senario, it wrinkles.
I’m also very generous when I cut the Multifil, no matter how straight I cut it, I can’t get to lay down straight. The Multifil seems to have waves in it when it’s rolled out, and I can lay a straight edge on it to guide the cutter, but when I take it up after the cut, it has a few curves where I don’t want them. This is a minor problem, as a rule.
But, the main reason is I still have to scrape it.
I’ll take a couple of pictures of the saddle before I clean it up, and you’ll see just how messy the epoxy is.
Harry

01-18-2010, 06:00 PM – beckley23 

The epoxy has cured, no scriber penetration. Note the extra length and width(hard to tell in this shot). The splotchiness on the Multifil is a thin film of the epoxy, that is very easy to remove by using a scraper, held as flat as possible, after the Multifil has been trimmed to the saddle edges. I trim the excess Multifil using a chisel, pushing against the cast iron edge. It trims relatively easily, if the chisel is sharp.
Another view. The epoxy is the dark blue/gray. The saddle will be set up on the mill to clean the excess epoxy in the bottom(in this view) of the groove of the V slide.
The flat slide. I used a little too much epoxy, judging by the size of the fillet.
The runs and drips. Most of them were romoved when I trimmed the Multifil.
The flat slide has been trimmed, and the fillet removed, very delicately using the chisel. The light gray between the multifil and the rear of the saddle is the trimmed epoxy. I had the Multifil butted against a shoulder, but it did a bit of shifting when I applied the forms and weights. It’s hard to tell but the width is not consistent. It should be a little under a 1/32″.
The squareness test set up, before any scraping started. This test showed .002″/12″ convex, but that didn’t hold once I got sufficient bearing area on the V slide., it’s more like .005″/12″ convex. A little correction to make.
This is approx the 15th cycle. The saddle is transversely level, but high on the TS side approx .001″, and I’ve got the .005″/12″ convexity, plus the rear rear flat slide needs considerably better bearing area. I’ve got to check for the vertical leadscrew alignment, also.

Harry

01-23-2010, 04:54 PM – beckley23 

This has been a frustrating week, but the saddle is scraped in, and all that needs to be done is to cut the oil grooves in the Multifil, and to make a spacer shim for saddle/apron interface. All alignments have been met with regards to cross slide squareness, .0003″ concave, levelness front to back, approx .0003″ high in front, levelness L to R, approx .0005″ high right, and the leadscrew alignment will be approx .002″ high with the use of a shim. The last part was the frustration part.
BTW, I had an error in my last post about the squareness being convex, should have read concave. Didn’t make any difference, a correction still had to be made.
The frustration centered around the non-repeatable height readings I was getting. I could check the reading twice and get different results. Sometimes they went higher, other times lower, there was absolutely no consistency. The strangest oddity were the different readings I got was on each end of the little angle plate clamped to the 1-2-3 blocks, that was consistently different by .005″ in approx 2″. I thought I was getting a shift when tightening the C clamp, but finally decided that wasn’t the case yesterday afternoon. Finally, I set the saddle upside down on parallels, using the cross slide ways as the reference surface, on the surface plate, and took indicator readings on the saddle interface with the apron. .018″ high on the right end, .005″ high on left end with most of the rest at 0. This was a ground surface, that had very light scraping on the ends. It’s now a milled surface, and it is flat. The rear gib block area was/is flat. I also checked the interface of the apron, it is flat.
This is the first time, in all the lathes I’ve done, that I’ve seen the problem above. This was, indeed, a learning experiece. So to anybody contemplating a reconditioning job, this is something else to consider.
Any use of the original surface of the saddle interface was out of the question. Something was going to straighten out, and it won’t be the apron, ruining the scraping of the V slide. The only solution was to mill the interface, and use a shim to account for the difference, or keep scraping. Had I kept scraping, the Multifil would have gotten very thin, making cutting, more like gouging, the oil grooves very risky, by getting into the epoxy section. Shimming seems like the easiest and most effective method to achieve leadscrew alignment. Right now I have to make up a .012″ difference. I may use a .010″ shim with Loctite 515 Gasket Eliminator on each side, hoping the achieve the .012″ difference, but that is down the road a few days.
Time for some pictures.
Had to re-do the height measuring arrangement, a height gage about 8″ OAH would have been ideal, seen a few at auctions, but didn’t think they were worth what they went for. I’ve now changed my tune. Using the first set-up I showed a few posts back was proving cumbersome, I think this arrangement is much more workable. I picked up the small angle plate 30+ years ago, always admired the workmanship, but this is the first time, that I can recall, that I’ve used it. I think the maker used on a spin index grinding fixture.
Checking the height.
The reworked saddle/apron interface. Tried to do the milling with a fly cutter, but the finish was terrible, and switched to an inserted cutter with better results. The right end, hidden by the reflection, is a little on the rough side, due to the set -up not being rigid.
The bright spots on the scraped Multifil surface are the bearing areas. The spots were the result of sliding the saddle up and down the bed several times, more or less burnishing the surface. This seemed like a good idea to high spot to surface for finish scraping, that I used it to improve the bearing area on the rear flat slide. These spots are easier to see, if you are catching the reflections just right, than using a marking medium to spot for finishing.

Harry

Last edited by beckley23; 01-23-2010 at 06:23 PM. Reason: Corrections and additions

01-26-2010, 04:59 PM – beckley23 

Bored and bushed the apron’s feed rod bushings. They were worn oval approx .030 X .040″. You can also see the spanner wrench holes I drilled, for aligning the bushing with the taper pins. I also polished the the OD to lessen the tightness of the bushings in the apron so that could be more easily rotated. One of the bushings has to come out for the worm installation later on. The taper pins are but not seated. Both of the drain plugs were missing. I kept looking at the lower plug hole while I was working on the saddle, and decided to investigate. The plug plugs an oil galley that feeds the entire apron and saddle. Ever wonder why it takes so long to charge the oil system, the size of the hole is the explanation. This also explains a lot about the condition of the saddle’s and apron condition.
This addition to the apron is part of the spindle start/stop system that I’m fitting to the lathe. It’s a very tight fit in there; the first time I did this on my other EE, I did it with the apron on the lathe, which was easy. Hopefully it will different this time. All of the parts are shown in the “VFD Conversion” sticky.

Harry

01-29-2010, 05:15 PM – beckley23 

Decided to use brass shim stock, .010″, for the saddle/apron interface spacer. Used the antique drawing board for the 1st time in 30+ years to do the lay out. The areas with the black marking are the cut outs.
The 2 small holes on the left side of the upper oil sumo didn’t have any tubes attached. Somehow I think this should be different, especially as I recall the SE 60’s apron. Anybody know where they go. I didn’t see any screw holes for attachment clips on the apron’s interior.

Harry

01-29-2010, 05:24 PM – rkepler 

They’re not really good pictures, but:Shows the exit and endpoint of at least one.Here’s the back in case it got lost:

01-29-2010, 05:31 PM – beckley23 

Thanks Russ. Looks like the lower outside tube is oiling the cross feed clutch, and the upper inside tube is snaking down to the feed reverse gearing, but it’s hard to tell. The tube for the worm gearing is on the apron.
Harry

01-29-2010, 07:30 PM – DaveE907 

Each one of the two tubes supplies oil to a feed clutch assembly. The tube shown snaking down into the apron in Russ’ photo feeds into the similar upper hole in the other feed clutch assembly.The tubes are formed so the ends of the tubes extend into the oil supply holes. To disassemble the apron the tubes must be pulled upward far enough to disengage from the oil holes so the clutch components can be removed.The original tubes are steel and quite stiff.My photos aren’t great either but might offer another perspective of the tube routing. Wish I’d taken photos during reassembly, they’d have shown the tubes much more clearly, these were taken during teardown.

The second photo shows a glimpse of the top of the other feed clutch and where the tube enters its oil feed hole.

01-29-2010, 07:57 PM – PaulM 

Another picture of the same area – different angle, in case it is helpful. Pin on the wire is how I was able to replace the taper pin that fell out of feed reverse knob
I’m sure you’ll notice this if needed – the Bijur fitting that I got from Monarch (which matches the one that was there) needed the corner filled down otherwise there would have been an interference with the saddle (the original was filled as well).Thanks for posting all the details of your work Harry, I learn a lot just reading about your your progress.Paul

01-29-2010, 08:17 PM – beckley23 

Russ, Dave & Paul- Thanks, that’s simple enough.
Harry

02-16-2010, 05:48 PM – beckley23 

The apron, for the most part, has been completely assembled. All of the gearing and the oil pump has been replaced. I still need to make a new leadscrew, I know it should be a hardened and ground thread, but I don’t do much single point threading, and I don’t think the leads will will be significantly effected in the short lengths I generally do. The screw will made from Stressproof. I’m pretty sure the leadscrew has to be in the apron before attaching to the saddle; it won’t pass the thread dial if done afterwards. I found that out the hard way with the SE 60’s leadscrew and the thread dial mounted on the apron. At least I didn’t have to take the apron off, just the thread dial, it is an external mount.Backside of the apron. Note the “false” shafts for the feed rod and the start/stop shaft. They should, I hope, slide out easily when the real shafts are inserted at final assembly.
The top of the apron, with the .010″ brass spacer in place, checking the clearances.
I feel there is definite need for “cotton waste”, I think that’s the term, in the upper sump. There is a hole in the upper sump that feeds oil to the half nuts. Today I squirted oil in that hole with the nuts open and closed, and in both cases the oil drained immediately. That hole is below the other oil holes in the sump, the two oiling the clutches, and the one oiling the worm gearing. Without the waste, I don’t see any way oil will ever get the worm gearing. I’m including the picture from a very recent post of the upper sump, and the hole is plainly visible.

Harry

02-19-2010, 08:14 PM – TMS8C8 

Quote Originally Posted by beckley23 View Post
I feel there is definite need for “cotton waste”, I think that’s the term, in the upper sump.

FWIW:

Try getting some quality nylon pipe cleaners and sliding them into the oil passage. My Pacemaker had some corded cotton like substance, but I replaced them with pipe cleaners and I have been reasonably pleased. The pipe cleaner will drain a little faster than the cotton, so I cut a longer piece and slid it in a little bit farther. Seems to be working well with no messy oil pooling up anywhere. After 2 years, it didn’t seem to do anything to the nylon, either.

02-19-2010, 11:25 PM – DaveE907 

That’s great progess Harry, nice plumbing job too. Your “false” shafts are better than mine which were just hardwood dowels with keyways. I found it satisfying to return the filed flathead screws on the rear of the apron to their original places and clocking, bet you did too. The 10 EE leadscrew can be installed and removed with the apron assembled to the saddle. It’s much easier than having the leadscrew stabbed through the back of the apron while trying to attach the apron to the saddle. If there’s trouble with the thread dial assembly, loosen the clamp ring and swing it out of the way, it’s mounted eccentrically for adjustment.Your experiment was excellent. The “cotton waste” or equivalent in the well (packed cotton butcher’s twine will work) is essential for proper function of the apron lubrication system. The feed clutches and worm feed drive rely on capillary action to deliver oil to those higher tubes in the well and the slow weeping effect controls oil to the half nuts. It’s an oldy but goody.

02-23-2010, 06:21 PM – beckley23 

Dave,
I thought about swiveling the thread dial, and then took a look at the opening in the apron and had second thoughts. Today I put the dial on, and by golly it turns easily, a lot easier than I remember from 6 years ago.The apron is about ready to do back on, but a few loose ends need tending to first.
First was getting the gear rack off. It turns out that Monarch through drilled the screw and dowel holes to the inside of the bed. A few light taps, that’s all they could be, and the rack started coming off. Got it cleaned up and found one bad tooth. How a section of the tooth got chipped, banged, compressed, take your pick, is any bodies guess. Its location, close to the headstock, said this was going to be a problem. Off to the microscopic welder, for the second time in two days, yesterday it was my fault, I forgot to change a feed stop on the turret lathe a couple days ago, today’s it’s somebody elses.
Also needed needed a new lens for the apron’s sight glass, the original just fell apart. Had a piece of 1/4″ Lexan flat stock. Cut out a small piece on the vertical bandsaw and did the rounding to approx 1″ D on the belt sander. Used special 1″ 5-C collet, for another job, to hold the blank while I turned one end down to .950″, made up another special for .950″ so that I could finish the other end and do the bump out, then reversed the part and did the counterbore. The picture below is the third to last cut. The speed was 500 RPM, feed approx .003″, and the depth is approx .070″. The main problem here is the tearing, frostiness, from 3/8″ D out to the .670″ OD of the counterbore.
Full depth has been reached, approx .090″. I changed the feed to the 2nd lowest in the gearbox, and dropped the speed, starting at 400, approx, at the center going to 150 approx. at the .670 mark. What you see is before polishing with Simichrome, that helped a little.
The 3 main pieces of the assembly, the paper gaskets aren’t shown. I applied a very thin bead of RTV to the inside corner of the ring and installed the lens, checking for RTV squeezing. The gaskets were coated on each side with Loctite Gasket Eliminator, one for each side of the level plate, and installed in the apron. Definitely going to have to do something about the flat head screws.

Harry

02-24-2010, 05:46 PM – beckley23 

If you recall, I asked about wipers for the gib blocks on the rear of the saddle in an earlier Post. Russ offered a couple of them, and I accepted. Thank you Russ, and today they got installed. Dave Erickson said that he squeezed them in a vise to compress them. I tried that in a pair of pliers, and decided to split them lengthwise, and fit them. It was on and off the saddle a couple of times, each time slicing off a sliver until properly fitted. The bearings still have to be adjusted, after the apron is mounted. That is the hardest felt I’ve encountered.
Single pointing the new leadscrew. The screw is made from Stressproof. The OAL is 48″, the threaded section is 34-1/4″ long. All that needs to done is to cut the snap ring groove in the tailstock end, clean up the unthreaded section, and fit to the gearbox. The job was done on the CY with 54″ centers, as I’ve yet to make the FR for the SE 60.

Harry

02-24-2010, 08:02 PM – daryl bane 

Something I thought I would chime in here. I found that the rack gear can be interchangeable. Not only from year to year, but back to front and vice versa. I had a almost NOS Round dial rack, and with a little fettle, fit it up with the back (less worn) rack off of my machine. I was amazed that the two halves matched up as well as they did. Probably made on the same machine 20 yrs apart.

02-24-2010, 08:27 PM – beckley23 

The rack is one piece for a 30″ center machine. I thought it would be 2 pieces, and I did look at turning it around, but the way the screws and dowels were set up, 6 of each, that would have required a lot of modification, but you would still have to deal with the chipped section. It extended almost the full width of the face. It was easier to get it welded and file it to shape.
Harry

02-25-2010, 04:34 PM – ditto_95 

Harry,
Is that follower support a stock item for the CK or did you fabricate it.
It looks much more functional than the Brass V on my follower rest for my 10EE.

02-25-2010, 04:39 PM – beckley23 

I built the follow rest.
Harry

02-26-2010, 05:38 PM – beckley23 

The apron was mounted yesterday afternoon, and removed this morning, after I deicided to investigate why the pump wasn’t working. After playing with it for a while, and changing the filter, I decided to it wasn’t up to the job. It pumped out of the machine, just working it manually, but it didn’t move my thumb off the output, the original had bit more umph and got installed. Bench testing, the pump did force my thumb off the upper port. I also decided to partially fill the worm sump, before mounting to the saddle. This necessitated the removal of the worm gear cover. Guess what I discovered after the apron was mounted. That’s right there sat the cover. Let’s just say I got a lot of practice mounting aprons today. At least the EE apron is a piece of cake compared to the SE 60’s, don’t need a forklift.
I also mounted the leadscrew after the apron was mounted, and then adjusted the thread dial afterwards, per Dave’s suggestion. Your experience may be different from mine, but that wasn’t an easy adjustment.Mounting the apron. I remembered my last experience, several years ago, mounting an EE apron. This time , because of the need for the .010″ brass spacer, I decided to try a slightly different approach, and it was much easier. The primary purpose was to keep the spacer from wondering around in the mounting proces. I used 2 threaded studs, from the SE 60’s sled, as positioners. Once the apron was positioned under the saddle, the studs were installed through 2 of the saddle’s screw holes. The studs had the unexpected benefit of easing the initial lifting of the apron for the next 2 screws installation. In addition thiere was less risk of dislocating the stacked O rings I used to seal the oil galley interface.
A diiferent view.
The apron is fully raised with a screw at each end. The other 8 quickly followed.
The pump works.
Of course the handwheel line was the last to fill, as evidensed by the oil trickle down the front. I was surprised by the amount of oil it took to fill the lines, the oil was originally at the gage line in the sight glass.
It’s starting to look like a lathe.

Harry

02-28-2010, 12:37 AM – M. Moore 

Harry, great work.I’ve been catching up on the last two pages of posts.Please excuse the dumb question but here goes…
Why do you need to build up the saddle with multifil? Can you not mill off the bottom interface? And or mill the top of the apron to correct the alignment with the leadscrew? Is it the gear drive for the cross slide? And if it is I would assume there is no way to adjust that alignment?
Your shim is .010 plus gasket, is that how much material you milled off the bottom of the saddle?I appreciate your taking the time to answer.Regards,Michael

02-28-2010, 02:48 AM – rimcanyon 

There are a couple of reasons not to mill off the bottom of the saddle or top of the apron to re-establish alignment with the leadscrew. One is the gear mesh of the cross slide screw feed gear. Another is the alignment of things that depend on the saddle height, like the thread counter, the ball bearing gibs in the rear, tool holders, etc. Tool holders may not seem like something that you need to worry about, but if you have more than one 10EE, its nice to be able to use the same tooling without adjustment. Monarch tried to preserve tool height when the square dial was introduced: the cross slide and compound are both thicker, raising the toolpost up to the same height as on the round dial.

02-28-2010, 09:41 AM – beckley23 

Michael,
Dave has pretty much hit it with the short explanantion.
Now the long explanation.
The traditional way of maintaining the alignment of the leadscrew after reconditioning the bed and saddle is relocate the QC gearbox, right end shaft bracket and the gear rack. On lathes such as South Bend, etc., that is a relatively easy matter. When you get into the Monarchs, Hendeys, P&W, L&S, and many others it becomes much more complicated. I will address this from the Monarch perspective because that is what I’m familiar with.
The Monarch gearbox, right end bracket, and gear rack are keyed into the bed horizontally with keys, taper and dowel pins, and screw holes. I think you can imagine the difficulty of relocating all of that.
With regard to cutting the top of apron down, or taking it off of the saddle interface, it is a matter of how much. A couple of thousandths I wouldn’t worry about, but more often than not, it’s not a couple thou, but much, much more. You also have to consider that two gears have to mesh properly, the cross feed gear in the saddle, and its driver in the apron. The only gear that you can undercut the teeth on, is the cross feed gear; How much do you want to undercut? Me, I’m not interested. Think about the ramifications of undercutting, either the driver, or the driven gears. Undercutting the driver and you have a problem with its proper meshing with its driver. This will also have possible affects on the workpiece finish.
The only other solution I see is to use filler material attached to the saddle, such as Turcite, Multifil, Rulon, or Moglice to build up the saddle height. You can only determine how much build up is needed after the bed and saddle have been scraped, ground or otherwise prepared.
The problem I had with the “Wreck” is twofold. One, the bottom of the saddle was not straight, and I had to take a cut to true it up for a proper mating with the apron. The other problem I had is a matter of sine, cosine, and tangent when figuring out how much to mill off the saddle slides for the addition of the Multifil plus scraping stock. Believe me when I say there is a fudge factor in there. I really don’t know how thick the epoxy is, I’m only guessing. Most of the time I guess right, this time I wasn’t so fortunate. That is the reason for exsistence of the .010″ thick brass shim; I didn’t mill enough off the saddle slides. I had two choices; either take the Multifil off, after it was scraped and mill off more iron and redo the Multifil, or use the brass spacer to drop the apron the additional .010″. Actually, it is .012″ drop needed, but I used Loctite 515 Gasket Eliminator on both sides of the spacer, again I’m guessing at how thick the Loctite is.
Monarch does not use a gasket at the saddle/apron interface. I use the Loctite, because I’ve had experience with coolant getting into the apron.
Harry

03-01-2010, 12:12 PM – Cal Haines 

Harry,How much does the 0.010″ spacer affect the mesh of the cross-feed drive gears?Cal

03-01-2010, 05:00 PM – beckley23 

Cal,
Don’t know yet. That was the only gear I couldn’t find, and I’m in the process of making one. The original was pretty nasty, but I did try it when I was assembly, and I don’t remember any excessive problems.
Harry

03-02-2010, 05:41 PM – beckley23 

Cal, thanks for reminding me to consider the spacer when I cut the gear today. The normal full depth for a 16 DP 14-1/2* PA gear is .1348″. I reduced the depth to .127″, it’s a WAG, it probably should have been a little deeper, I think the teeth are a bit thick. I can hear it, but not feel it, as if there isn’t enough backlash. For the present, I’ll take a wait and see approach.
The hardest part about the gear, was making the key. I don’t get the pleasure of making very small parts very often, and it becomes a challenge with the standard work holding devices, such as a 6″ mill vise. The key is .75 long and .156″ tall. the key section is .125″ wide by .0625″ tall, and the section that’s welded into the gear is .135″ wide X .0937″ tall X .500″ long. In addition, Monarch pulled out the stops, and radiused the top of the key section to conform to the bore.
The new gear and key are on top, the originals on the bottom.
Everything goes together as it should. The only thing that needs to be done, is to get rid of the excess key.
The assembled cross feed handle.

Harry

03-02-2010, 07:43 PM – Cal Haines 

Originally Posted by beckley23
Cal, thanks for reminding me to consider the spacer when I cut the gear today. The normal full depth for a 16 DP 14-1/2* PA gear is .1348″. I reduced the depth to .127″, it’s a WAG, it probably should have been a little deeper, I think the teeth are a bit thick. I can hear it, but not feel it, as if there isn’t enough backlash. For the present, I’ll take a wait and see approach. …

Harry,

I’m glad my question was helpful.

Maybe you went too deep? I don’t know much about gears, but just from a barn-yard engineering perspective, I would think that if you pull the gears 0.010″ out of mesh, the cutter should be backed off about the same amount. How easy would it be to blue up one of the gears and see how they are meshing?

Do I understand correctly that you welded the new key into the gear?

Cal

03-02-2010, 06:23 PM – rimcanyon 

The assembled cross feed handle.
Very nice work Harry. This whole project is a labor of love, clearly. So much detail, so many things that have to be exactly right.

-Dave

03-02-2010, 06:35 PM – beckley23 

It would be pretty easy to blue the gear and see where the interference is, but at present I don’t have any Dykem. I had a bottle, but I use the stuff very, very rarely. When it went bad I never replaced it, it may be time.
You are almost right about the .010, but it would be a little more. The mating gear axis is a little to the left, in the apron, under the cross feed axis. I didn’t do the trig. The other factor is the involute shape of the teeth, and I think there is a formula for what I did, but I gambled on a WAG, decided on the .008″, and the results are in. I would have probably been better off going in at .128″ or .129″.
I had the key welded into the gear. I champfered one end of the slot and one end of the key, each at opposite ends, and shoved a 3/8″ D rod in the hole to keep the key located in the slot. Still it was a relatively tight slip fit. The welder basically did a tack weld at each end. The gear is 4140 PH and the key is O-1. The real surprise was that the screw slid right in, I didn’t have to do any fitting. Given the confines of the hole and the location of the key, that would have been very difficult.
On the original, Monarch has, what appears to be, a tight fit in the slot and the top of the key is mushroomed into the top edge of the slightly beveled slot, much like a rivet. The surface, I believe, was then finished afterwards. Getting the original key out, was not easy.
Harry

03-02-2010, 06:53 PM – Cal Haines

Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
Very nice work Harry. This whole project is a labor of love, clearly. So much detail, so many things that have to be exactly right.-Dave
Well said, and seconded!Harry, thanks for the explanation on the gear calculation.Cal

03-05-2010, 04:35 PM –beckley23

Last weekend, after the coffeee club left, I put an indicator on the saddle to further investigate a potential problem I noticed when I closed the half nuts on the leadscrew. There was noticeable movement of the screw, but how much. A couple of thou, no sweat, but .020″ is a different story. The nuts were pulling the screw forward.
I thought about it for the next few days, tried forcing the apron further back against the saddle register. The best I could do was .015″, maybe.
Wednesday, the saddle and apron came off, again. I’m getting pretty fast at this, unfortunately. The saddle was set up on the mill, and I used the V slide as the reference surface. I also indicated the rear face of the saddle, which showed a change of approx .006″ over the length. The .006″ I could attribute to the correction necessary for cross slide alignment, and the other .014″ to the bed and saddle scraping, mainly because I can’t think of any other reason.
I milled off .020″ from the saddle’s apron register, and elongated all the mounting holes .020″ to accommodate the screw movement. The holes were originally .391″ D for the 3/8″ SHCS. The screw heads where also reduced about .015″ D.
The saddle and apron were reinstalled, and the best alignment I could get was .005″ movement of the leadscrew, without the thread dial engaged. Once I got the thread dial fully engaged, the indicator didn’t budge.
A word about the thread dial gear, and this is why I’m a bit skeptical that I’m totally for the above readings. The wear pattern on the gear teeth indicated that the thread dial gear was never at full engagement depth, and the locating screw on the saddle was fully seated when I took it apart 2 years ago. Draw your own conclusions.Milling .020″ off the saddle’s apron register. Note the paper plug in the saddle’s oil supply hole and the brass plugs in the V slide oil ports. I wasn’t interested in cleaning these.

The taper attachment is next.
BTW, I did find wear marks/scratches, on the addendems of the cross feed gear. That looks easy enough.
Harry

03-09-2010, 03:41 PM – beckley23

As you recall, the lathe had a broken taper attachment from being improperly unloaded, it either caught the TA on the hook, or the lathe rolled on its back. There are pictures of the broken TA at the beginning of this topic, hence the name “Wreck”.
One of the members offered me a mostly complete TA, off a slightly older machine, and it’s in the process of being adapted and mounted on this lathe. I’m not experiencing any undo problems, as of yet, but there have been a couple of areas that needed addressing. The TA has been painted, and new bearings installed. The biggest problem was getting the drawbar properly aligned and easy working. The drawbar was ground, mostly as a result of the scraping of the cross slide area. It stood about .010″ taller than the top of the dovetail, and material was ground off both sides. The biggest problem was that the recess in the dovetail, and the TA carriage bracket were slightly misaligned, approx .015″ which caused a binding drawbar. The end solution was to reduce the diameter of the carriage brackets’ screw heads and move the entire bracket towards the TS end. The unit now works as it should, easily.
The next “problem” is going to be the cross slide and the cross feed screw alignment, and that’s next on the list.The alignment of the slide and swivel, are what I’ll call “semi-critical”. In the past, when I reassembled the TA, I set the swivel at the O mark, and aligned the swivel parallel to the bed by traversing the carriage, and adjusting the horizontal bearings. That’s how I did it last Saturday. Never before did I push the slide, while the indicator was still in place, but I did last Saturday, and it was out .010″, but 0-0 if the carriage was traversed. In the past, this has not affected the work, and I don’t think it will now, but being the anal retentive type, I decided to look at this a little closer yesterday. My solution was to slide the slide to one extreme and indicate the vertical side of the slide for about 5″, and adjust the horizontal bearings. Once I got 0-0 readings, I then re-indicated the swivel as before, and adjusted the degree and taper per foot index for 0 setting. To make this job a bit easier I also removed the top gibs, so I see what was going on with the ball bearings as I was adjusting them. The first 2 pictures show the set ups.
Just checking that the drawbar has enough room at the front, it looked a little long, but wasn’t. This is the maximum setting and travel of the TA.
Monarchs are full of surprises. Here’s a new one for me. I’ve always assumed that the pins in the connector bars were dowel pins. They’re taper pins, as I found out when I had to replace the one on the right.

Harry

03-10-2010, 07:40 AM – WHHJR

All of the pins associated with my 14C (1940) TA and cross slide are taper pins.

03-10-2010, 10:58 AM – Cal Haines

Harry,

In the TA for my 1943 round-dial, 3 of the 4 slide bearing studs are eccentric; the 4th is just a stud. Parts picture E-9 shows the non-eccentric stud closest to the bed and tailstock. I assume it’s this way to facilitate adjusting the slide parallel to the bed, as you did. Does your TA have the non-eccentric stud?

Do you plan to dowel-pin the TA to the bed?

Cal

03-10-2010, 03:29 PM – beckley23

The TA will be dowel pinned to the carriage, after I check for horizontal alignment. Was going to that the other day, until I discovered that I didn’t have drill bit long enough, and it was too late to make up an extension. Don’t forget, this is not the original TA, so holes don’t always align, I know the dowel pin holes don’t, and I ran into a few others. I had to use parts from both TAs to get one.
I think all 4 of the bearing studs are eccentric, I don’t recall one being concentric. I think it’s better with all eccentric studs, there is more wiggle room, but it is also a little harder to do. I remember the SE 60’s studs being all eccentric, all 16 of them. That was tough; just 4 on the EE, that’s easy.
Harry

03-10-2010, 06:46 PM – PaulM

HI Harry,

On my 73 the cross bars have no dowels or taper pins just the SHCS, the castings match – no holes for any pins so at some point Monarch must have thought they didn’t need to pin those parts. I can shoot a picture if you want as the taper attachment is in the basement at the moment.Another data point on the eccentric bearing adjusters – on the 73 one bearing stud is straight – non eccentric. Maybe it got replaced on yours or they tried something different. As you say, gives you more wiggle room with the down side that there is no fixed starting point. Given the quality of your work definitely not an issue for you.Paul

03-21-2010, 07:53 AM – beckley23

Cross Feed Screw and Nut

It’s time for the cross feed screw and nut to be mounted. With the replacement TA was a cross feed screw, in relatively good condition. However the nut that came with it, and the original nut I had, were both beyond redemption, as the threads were worn to the sharp crest stage. In the past, I have made the new nuts, fitting them to the screws. I just didn’t feel like fighting that battle this time, but maybe I should have.
I bought a replacement nut, from a non OEM vendor, at a very reasonable price. I may be in error, but it has generally been my experience when you buy replacement parts for a custom fitted item, you have to do some custom fitting on your end also. To this end I expect certain details to be present. The 2 details I expect to be present on this item would be the abscence of the mounting holes and some some extra material on mounting surface. There is one more detail I expect, and I will get to that in a bit. The presence of the mounting holes I knew about at the time of purchase, however, the lack of extra material on the mounting surface was a surprise. Both of these facts create some extra work, some of it head scratching, but not insurmountable.
You may ask why I expect these details. The reasoning is thus; these are custom fitted items, the machine is worn and things do move around, more so if this a reconditioning job. The cross feed screw, in my experience, is in an unchanging location, and the cross slide will generally move to the tailstock end in this relationship. Something has to be relocated, and drilling new mounting holes seems to be the easiest solution, in most cases. I have in the past, added Multifil to the guiding slide of the cross slide to take care of this problem, when the movement was excessive, as it was on my 12″ CK, approx .030″, but on this lathe the movement was under .010″.
As to the lack of extra material on the mounting surface, this is really inexcusable. If this were a brand new machine, there is no way that this nut would be acceptable, as it is this is a reconditioned lathe, material was removed from both the cross slide ways and the cross slide, closing up the distance between the screw and the cross slide’s mounting surface, and I still have to add a shim to close the gap and get a solid mount.
Now for the third part, and this came as I was in the process of making a new screw. The full thread depth on the screw is; 1/2 the pitch +010″. This is a 5/8″ D X 8 TPI LH Acme thread. Full thread depth is .0725″, or .145″ on the direct reading DRO display. At .130″ depth I started checking the fit of the nut on the screw, the nut went on easily. It also had detectable side twist. After I get everything suitably mounted and operating properly I may make a new cross feed screw to fit the nut better, and reduce the backlash a little more.
The reason I made a new cross feed screw;
The backlash on the “old” screw I have is .045″ in the middle and .020″ on the ends, I can work with that, but “in for a penny, in for a pound” in this situation. I’ve done too much work on this lathe to start overlooking that small detail. The new screw has a backlash of under .010″ on the direct reading dial and indicator set-up, and my other EE has a backlash of approx .005″, and I think I can do better.
Testing the nut on the new screw.
The new screw mounted on the draw bar, and the old screw that came with the replacement TA. I also made a new bearing block to accomodate the new thrust bearings, which are slightly larger in diameter than the originals, which I didn’t have a complete set of.

Harry

03-23-2010, 10:41 PM

You may ask why I expect these details. The reasoning is thus; these are custom fitted items, the machine is worn and things do move around, more so if this a reconditioning job.

Harry, I agree with you 100%. I have a collection of used screws and nuts and both the offset and the spacing of the two holes varies. Trying to fit a used screw and nut to a lathe requires some work, to get the alignment right. I have posted about it in the past. I sometimes get lucky and find a combination where the nut has excess offset so it can be machined to fit. I have also removed nuts from lathes that I bought, only to find shims between the nut and the bottom of the cross slide.However, I did buy one of the nuts that has been offered for sale on this forum and on ebay, and which is made by the seller. I found that the fit to the cross slide screw was very good, and I was able to reduce backlash to about .005″ using that nut. I also got lucky and did not need to shim or machine the nut.-Dave

03-24-2010, 09:40 AM – rklopp

I bought a cross-slide and compound nuts, probably from the same guy as you. I had to shim my cross-slide nut, but I don’t have an issue with that. My issue is with the material. I think it is yellow brass, not bronze. The friction properties of steel on yellow brass are not as nice as steel on bronze. I found there was stick-slip between the screw and nut. This made me go back to the old bronze nut on the cross-slide, which wasn’t too worn, really. I did keep the new nut on the compound, but the stick slip sure is noticeable.

03-24-2010, 03:40 PM – beckley23

Last Monday I wrestled with the screw/nut issue and finally got it resolved. I removed the .015″ shim I super glued on and replaced it with a .020″ shim, not glued, which made a noticeable improvement on the ease of moving the cross slide. On my other EE, I can literally spin the handwheel a couple of turns with no effect on the accuracy, or repeatability in a cut. I was hoping to get the same results on this lathe, but that is not the case. I can get maybe a half turn, but it is definitely easier now than before. I think a lot has to do with the tightness of gib, and I experimented with that issue, eventually reaching a suitable adjustment, basically determined by how the DTI moved when I pushed on the cross slide and the amount of springback. If no springback, generally over .001″, it was too loose, if the DTI moved less than a .0005″ and sprung back to 0, I felt that the adjustment had been reached. Any tighter, then the cross slide really got hard to move, and would have been difficult to adjust for that little bit that one seems to need. The final backlash I measured was approx .0065″, or so.
It’s nice to know that others share my thoughts on after-market parts.
As far as the material is concerned, I’m pretty sure this nut is bronze. I had to remove some material, to clear an oil line in the channel, it was protruding from the recess a bit much, and sure machined like bronze.
So for now, I’ll go with this set-up, and see how things work out.Well, I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. The last major piece is the tailstock, and I’ll get to that very soon, but I still have a little to do on the carriage; the TA cover, the vernier for the TA, and a cover for the rear of the cross slide.
I did complete the rest of the apron control system today.
The carriage is done, with the exceptions noted above.
The right end bracket needed a groove for the internal passage of the wiring for the apron control switch. I’ve never seen the bracket for the ELSR, but I’m sure it has something similar.
The switch mounting plate. Note the slot for the wire passage. The apron control handle and the cam/switch arrangement are in the off position.
All covered up, all it needs is paint.

Harry

03-28-2010, 07:59 AM – beckley23

A few years ago, I got lucky and bought a TA vernier attachment on ebay that was mostly complete except for the worm and dial assembly. As it turned out, I had the worm on the shelf from a purchase many, many years before, for a project long since forgotten. I don’t think I’m going to be that lucky again, especially since I don’t see many, if any, of these attachments on ebay. The ones I do hear about, are frightfully expensive, IMO.
The math was worked out long ago, from what little information I could gather at the time, and confirmed when I recieved the vernier, as to the gearing.
Making one of these attachments shouldn’t be too difficult, buy the gears and whittle on some CI, alum, or steel. Checking the scrap pile, I found some CI, I think it’s Meehanite, and set to work.
The biggest problem turns out to be the gears. The only supplier that I found so far is Boston. The prices quoted aren’t bad, in fact they’re very reasonable, but business is very bad, and I’ve got loads of time to play. The only real problem to get around is the worm gearing. As it turns out, 32 DP is very close to 10 TPI, that I think this worth trying. To me, this is not an application requiring precision gearing. So, I’m going to gash the worm gear and finish, either by making a hob, or lapping with a sacraficial worm.
Progress so far;
On the right is the Monarch vernier assembly, and the left is my copy, so far. I do have some corrections to make to the bosses, as I went a bit to deep with the boring head.
The bottom sides. The speeds and feeds were the same, as for the rest of the milling, yet every now and then I’ll get a pull out. You better have fast reflexes, and this time nothing broke, and nobody got hurt. The only solution was to reset everything and really cut back on the feed rate, and to tighten the vise a bit more. The only good thing, is that this is not readily visible.

Harry

03-28-2010, 03:21 PM – ditto_95

I hate when that happens. I always get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomache.
Glad you weren’t hurt.

03-30-2010, 12:15 PM – Cal Haines

Nice work, Harry. Would you be willing to share the design of your TA adjuster body?I look forward to seeing how you make the gearing.Cal

04-02-2010, 07:14 PM – beckley23

The TAA(Taper Attachment Adjuster) is a blatant copy of the Monarch gearbox, which served as the model. The important dimensions are dictated by the gearing. All the gears in the Monarch version are 32 DP, 14-1/2* PA. The gear segment on the TA swivel is part of a 432 tooth gear, which is 1.2 times larger than a 360 tooth gear. The dial has 60 graduation marks for minutes. The worm gear has 30 teeth, and is compounded to a 36 tooth spur gear, 1.2:1 ratio, so each revolution of the worm rotates the swivel 1*, the worm is a single start. The spur gears have a 3/16″ face. The idler gear also has 36 teeth. The dimension from the swivel/gearbox interface to the center of the idler gear is .5625″, and the center distances for the 36 tooth gears is 1.125″. The center distance for the worm and worm gear is .6875″. The block of cast iron has overall dimensions of 1.406″ thick, 3.0″ wide and 3-1/8″ long.I did find one supplier for the 36 tooth spur gears, and the worm and worm gear, Boston. My bearing supplier checked with Martin, Browning and some others but drew blanks. There is one spur gear that does present a problem if you are going to use stock spur gears, and that is the gear compounded to the worm gear. I don’t think it is insurmountable, but I don’t think it’s a piece of cake either. That gear is shown in one of the pictures above.The 32 DP worm has a linear pitch 0f .098X”, very close to 10 TPI, so that is where my determination came from to make the worm gearing. I thought it was going to be a little easier than it turned out. After working out the worm gear calculations, I’m sure the formulas are in MHB, I used a different book, I think it’s called “Machinist Ready Reference”, and quickly discovered that a 10 TPI for the basis, the PD’s of the gears changed, and as a result I had work out all the important dimensions. The biggest problem was this morning, when I was doing the trig for setting up the mill for the helix angle gashing. I was literally chasing my tail, until it dawned on me that all I had to do was solve 2 triangle problems, and I had my DRO readings from the starting edge. BTW, the helix angle is approx 4-1/3*’s.

One other problem was the spur gear cutter I bought. The working depth is .0673″, and is marked on the cutter. This is an imported cutter, and I don’t think they put the finishing touches on it.I machined the first set to the recommended WD, but when I tried to assemble the gears in the gearbox, they wouldn’t go. I measured over the gears meshed on the bench, and did the same to the Monarch gears; there was approx a .025″ difference. 2 things I could do, return the cutter, or make new gears compensating for the difference. I also needed the cutter for gashing the worm gear. I made new gears. They have a bit more backlash than the Monarch gears, but I don’t consider this as critical.

As of now, most of the difficult work is done.

Checking that the gearbox has all the necessary clearances.

There will be 2 spur gears cut from this bar.

Gashing the worm gear. It’s hard to tell, but the DH is set to 4-1/3* approx. BTW, I screwed up, the worm gearing is supposed to be RH, and the cutter should have been on the backside of the blank. Fortunately the worm hasn’t been made yet, so LH doesn’t present a problem.

The lapping/grinding set-up. I’ll make a new worm for the gearbox.

Another view.

Harry

04-03-2010, 11:58 AM – beckley23

Making sure the spur gears work properly. The swivel was rotated back and forth to the travel limits with no binding, nor excessive backlash. I was expecting to have to make an adjustment to the gearbox, either adding a shim, or removing some material, but not this time.
All the gears for the TAA. The 2 rings are bronze spacers to raise the spur gears off the gearbox and to place the gears approx centered in the gear segment on the swivel. The worm gear is still unfinished.
The worm was made long on both ends for manufacturing purposes. The excess, .096″ was removed from the bottom, and the fit is being checked. If the worm gear will slide the worm off the shaft without undue effort, I’ll be very satisfied. I was very satisfied. I did not detect any slop, indicating excessive backlash, but I’ll have to wait for final assembly before passing judgement.
Not a very good picture, but I’m ready to drill holes for the fasteners.
A different view of the above. The worm gear was throated before the grinding/lapping procedure.
For comparative purposes, the Monarch gears are on the right, mine on the left.

Harry

04-06-2010, 01:41 PM – Cal Haines

Very nice work, Harry!Thanks for the design information. My 10EE just has a single gear with a wrench-hex for the aduster. I would like to make a micrometer adjuster one day, but I don’t have one to copy. Did you make a sketch of your body?Regarding the 10 TPI, I had noticed several years ago that a 3/4-10 tap meshes very nicely with the sector. Could a tap be used to hob the worm gear?

How did you round the outside of the body?

Could you explain the steps for the lapping/grinding operation?

Cal

dsc00004.jpg

04-06-2010, 06:01 PM – Toms Wheels

Harry, Why didn’t you buy the worm gears from Boston? They were like $15 if I remember. Great work BTW, I’ve enjoyed watching your progress on this project.Tom

04-07-2010, 06:40 PM – beckley23 

Cal,
A tap could be used to hob the worm gear, but IMO, using a V form tap would present proper worm and worm gear meshing problems, unless the worm gear has very broad face for manufacturing purposes. The face can be reduced after the hobbing, as I did, but then with the design you are going to have account for the worm diameter. The space constraints in the gearbox, as made, won’t permit it. Also, worm gear design in this case, is based upon the Acme thread form. The worm gear’s pitch diameter is determined by the math involved, and in this case I used a .100″ pitch, and IIRC the PD is .984″. The 32 DP worm gear has a smaller PD, which is clear when looking at the 2 gears side by side. The pitch diameter of the worm could be played with, and I used the center distance of the worm gearing, .6875″, and went from there when figuring out the machining parameters.Regarding the sketches for the box, I’ll see what I can do about cleaning them up.The gearbox was finished by mounting in the 4 jaw and turning the boss for the worm shaft. Next I made the top cover and transferred the outline to the top of the gearbox, and went to work with an angle grinder, using the edge of a well rounded wheel to take care of the rest. The box was clamped to the workbench for this purpose. The final touches were done with belt sanders and files. Actually, I surprised myself, at how well this came out and how fast it went.The lapping/grinding process is shown in the pictures. I used a coarse grit Clover Compound to do the roughing, spreading the compound on the worm form with a flux brush while the form was turning at about 120 RPM. I was also oscillating the form up and down. The above pictures are between the coarse and the fine grit compounds. I used the DRO to determine when the proper center was reached, and made sure the oscilating motion got progressively easier. I also did a few checks of the cleaned up worm gear in the gearbox, to make sure it worked without undo effort.Tom,
The prices of all 4 gears was approx 100.00+ freight, the worm gearing accounting for approx 65.00. The gear cutter was approx 36.00 into Louisville, and business being in the pits, I decided to get a case of the cheaps. All of the material was in stock, or from the scrap pile.
I glad you are enjoying this saga, and if business doesn’t pick up, I’ll be done soon. I did get started on the tailstock today.
Harry

04-09-2010, 09:54 AM – Cal Haines 

Harry,

Thanks for the explanation of the lapping process, I think I understand now. What material is the lap made of?

And thanks for all the time you spend putting your posts together and answering questions!

Cal

04-09-2010, 05:09 PM – beckley23 

The lap form is made of 4140PH, although I think you could use another material. I was originally going to use the end for the lap , and the rest for the worm, but the threads came out badly, and it got used as a lap only. The worm was made from Stressproof.The first 2 pictures are the sketches for the TAA gearbox. The 1st is a cleaned version of the 2nd. I hope you can make them out.
The TAA installed. The dial calibrations are a bit to heavy and crude, but usuable. After I finished, I remembered how I ground the center drill several years ago, but I wasn’t going to make it again.
Early on in this project, I bought an “Old” height TS, specifically for the top casting, hoping it was good. I have measured the spindle holes of both the tops, and the older one was in much better shape throughout the entire length. The measuring instrument of choice was an Intramic. At the end the bore is 1.2555, and inch in it is 1.2547 and remained relatively constant throughout, although I could only check the first few inches of each end. From what I could tell the TS had been reworked, and whoever did it was quite good. I almost think it was Monarch. The only reason I’m doubtful is that the spindle isn’t calibrated. The reason I’m using the spindle is 1) it has been shortened, and 2) it isn’t a consistent diameter. I’m making a new spindle from 4140 PH, and that spindle is consistent in diameter, 1.2540″. It’s a little less than I wanted, but it is very nice fit in the spindle hole. Here, the blank is being checked for fit, which was done from both ends.
Checking the TS bottom’s transverse way. Very surprisingly the longitudinal and transverse checks showed perfect alignment, however the horizontal was high in front, IIRC. It has been spotted yet, nor has the top been fitted, so I quite sure things are going to change, but I’m not going to find out until the spindle is completed.

Harry

04-10-2010, 06:14 PM – beckley23 

Before I forget it, the gear backlash in the TAA is approx 13 minutes, on my other EE it is approx 5 minutes.The TS’s transverse way and the transverse didn’t quite fit. A bit of material was taken off the front of the way; it is very tight fit, currently.
I just had to see what lies ahead. The preliminary checks of the horizontal, vertical and HS spindle alignments were surprisingly, extremely good. I know these alignments will change, definitely the HS spindle’s, once I get all the clamps assembled, but these checks today showed that the TS is in better shape than I had any right to expect.

Harry

04-10-2010, 10:05 PM – Pete F 

 Harry, thanks ever so much for going to the trouble of posting the information on this rebuild. I can honestly say it’s highly inspirational, though my little SB rebuild you’d probably knock off in a day 
Going back to your discussion about the nuts, I notice the Moglice handbook talks about using it in the case of worn nuts and I wondered if anyone has done this and how successful it was? I also wondered how it wears in that situation?Pete

04-11-2010, 11:15 AM – Airplane Guy 

HarryI’m not too fond of your indicator setup you’re using to check your tailstock. A few years back I purchased a brand new Toyoda FH550S horizontal machining center. It’s a pretty impressive machine with a 15000 RPM 50 taper spindle. The first thing I needed was some tombstones so I proceeded to make them on my new machine. When I was boring holes for hardened bushings for locating pins I thought I’d indicate the bored holes to make sure the machine was repeating. I used an Indicol setup like yours mounted on the nose of a 50 taper tool holder. I could push pretty hard on the tool holder and the spindle and there was very little indicator deflection. The problem was all the holes indicated .002″ high. I could run the boring bar back in the same holes and it didn’t remove any material so I knew the machine was repeating.It actually took a few days before I realized what was happening. When the indicator is on the top like in your picture, any sag in the setup is down towards the side opposite the indicator face. Rotate it 180 degrees and the sag is in the opposite direction towards the side of the indicator face. I found it hard to believe there was as much sag as there was just from the weight of the indicator and holder.

Today I set up an indicator and Indicol like your setup and put a weight around twice the indicator weight on the crystal to simulate rotating the spindle the opposite direction. The indicator needle moved .003″. If all you want is a very rough check your setup is fine but I would try something much more rigid before correcting any problems. On a vertical spindle, this obviously isn’t a problem. You probably know this already but some of your readers might not. Keep up the great work, I can’t wait to see it finished.

Paul

04-13-2010, 05:35 PM – beckley23 

Paul,
I’m aware of the indicator sag. When I get ready to do the final adjustments, I go for the TS being .001-.002″ high. I the photo above, I just had to see what I was dealing with, it’s definitely in the roughing stage.Got the new TS spindle finished today. All the time I’ve had my ’62 EE, I noticed, but never paid it much mind, that the spindle didn’t have tang screws like my older gearheads. I never really looked at how the tang lock was put in there, until last week. The only thing I could figure is the spindle was drilled from both ends, not quite meeting at the proper position, then the slot was milled, and like magic the tang lock is there. The two problems I had was the 9/16″ taper shank drill wasn’t quite long enough to get the back end, approx 6-1/2″. That was a new drill, and it got part of the taper shank straightened out so that I could get the last 1/2″, or so. Also have to make a slightly thinner key for the nut’s internal keyway. I’ll have to get a bigger cutter holder the next time I cut a keyway using a single edge cutter.3 TS spindles. On the bottom is the new one with the test bar stuck in the MT, the middle is the “Wreck”‘s original spindle, andd the top is the one that came with the “new” old height TS.
I switched mills, this time, to do the calibrating. Much more sensitive, plus a higher top end really helped. I know it’s hard to tell the 3″ mark, but the line is filled with pencil lead, that’s not a mistake, so that I don’t stamp on the wrong line.
In this picture it’s hard to discern details, but the tang lock is about a third of the way to the right of the left end of the slot.

Harry

04-13-2010, 06:08 PM – Cal Haines 

Harry,Thanks for posting the drawings of your TAA body. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to redraw it for me!I’ll try to find time to draw it up in CAD and see if I have all the dimensions I might need.

Cal

04-14-2010, 12:26 AM – Lanza 

Harry,
The spindle looks great. Have you got any photos of the spindle beign made? What tool did you use for the graduations? I always thought that the spindles were harden?

04-14-2010, 02:37 PM – beckley23 

No pictures of the spindle being made. The blank was cut approx 2″ longer than the finished piece, and turned between centers. As the piece approached size, I stopped the turning operation at approx .0005″ oversize and polished it down to size, frequently testing in the TS top. After size was reached, the 4 jaw was mounted and the piece centered. I used .007″ thick aluminum pads between the jaws and the workpiece, to keep from marking it. The MT hole was drilled, and then the taper was bored. The real surprise here is that the MT reamer never touched the bore, nor has any other finishing operation been done to the bore, and so far I don’t see a need. Also, at this stage, there was no way I was going to jam a taper in there, no way to get it out. The finish came out quite nicely. The piece was turned around in the chuck, and the other end drilled, bored and threaded. The spindle was then set up in a super spacer for milling the drift slot, actually 2 operations, because I had to index the spacer to get the opposite side. At this point I jammed a taper into the hole to properly check the boring job. I was very pleasantly surprised, because I usually have to do a little tweaking, but not this time. Next, I switched mills, to my Alliant, a Bridgeport clone, to cut the keyway, oil channel, mill the necessary flats, and then do the calibrating. The engraving cutter was a very small center drill spinning at approx 2000 RPM. The Alliant is a whole lot easier to manipulate than the Gorton, the mill I used to calibrate the TAA dial. The Gorton was used for the dial because its T slots are the same size as the K&T’s, and I used a K&T dividing head for the dial.
The spindle is made from 4140PH(pre-hardened), approx 30-32 R. The OEM spindles are harder, but not by much.
Harry

04-15-2010, 03:35 PM – beckley23 

Got started scraping the bottom. All the “good” readings I got in the preliminary checks got trashed today. Got a couple cycles into this and started checking the alignments, and sure enough the readings were off.This is about the 3rd spotting of the slides.
Checking the progress later on. The test bar is pointing down and to the rear, approx .004″ in both directions. 4 cycles later the readings had been reduced to .002″.

Harry

04-20-2010, 03:44 PM – beckley23 

After my last post, I had a conversation with another member, and he asked about the “trashed” readings. There are a few explanations that come to mind; 1) nothing was clamped, although I didn’t feel any unusual movements in the various pieces when assembled, and 2) after a couple of cycles things do start to stabilize and a truer picture starts to emerge. One thing does surprise me though, and this has happened on the this TS, the one for the SE 60 and the one for the CK, and I can’t remember about my other EE; is that the base, when finished, is not parallel to the bed left to right, the right being lower than the left. On this TS base, the difference is approx .0045″. The important alignment, vertical alignment between the spindle and the bed, is there. That alignment is 0-0, the horizonatl alignment is +.0003″ forward at the end of the test bar. I will have to raise the top approx .0085″, minimum, to affect alignment with the headstock spindle. As I like mt TS spindles a little on the high side, I’ll use some of the .010″ shim stock from the apron/saddle alignment.There were 2 or 3 more cycles after this spotting, mainly to improve bearing area.
Doing the alignment checks. Notice that the spindle is clamped, as is the TS to the bed.
The HS/TS alignment check.

Harry

04-23-2010, 03:45 AM – Pete F 

Harry, what are you using for the test bar?

04-23-2010, 01:37 PM – beckley23 

The test bar is a precision ground test bar with recessed centers that I picked up years ago with some other stuff, that I forgot I had.
Harry

04-23-2010, 06:00 PM – Pete F 

Yeah I thought it would be, but was hoping you were going to say “oh it’s just a [insert cheap solution here]” It just happened I was looking at test bars when I read your latest instalment. Speaking of which, it looks like you’re almost done, THEN what am I going to read here? Can you do another one, please? No maybe a mill this time 

04-24-2010, 05:11 PM – beckley23 

Groove in TS bottom
In the last picture of post # 223, the TS bottom, there is groove in the top of the bottom on the lower left corner, that runs from the inside of the lubrication section to the outside. The groove is aprrox. 1/16″ deep or less. Does anybody know the purpose of the groove. I don’t have this groove on any other of the Monarchs’ I’ve got.
Harry

04-25-2010, 12:25 PM – Cal Haines 

Harry,My guess is that the mystery groove is a overflow in case the reservoir gets too full. I have no idea why this one would have it and the others don’t.Cal

04-25-2010, 05:58 PM – PaulM 

I believe my 73 has the groove – I dont have a picture but I remember it when I had the tailstock apart.My guess was the same as Cal’s an overflow line.Paul

04-26-2010, 05:37 PM – beckley23 

I figured it was an overflow, also. But why? That little section holds a lot of oil, that’s going to drain through the holes, very quickly, unless there is some felt in there. The only base that I’ve got that has felt in that compartment, is the base that came with the “old” height TS, none of the other TS’s have the felt, or show any signs that felt was ever in there.
Harry

04-28-2010, 02:11 PM – DaveE907 

My 10 EE (1952 square dial) had the felt pad in the TS base, when I took it out there was no sign left that it had been there. It was obviously made for the purpose, .25 inch thick and carefully diecut with rounded corners to fit the cavity in the TS base. It’s odd that it isn’t shown on the tailstock assembly drawing: Tailstock, Unit EE12, Sheet 115.

05-03-2010, 03:08 PM – beckley23 

I thought once I done with the scraping, the assembly of the TS would be a breeze, but this lathe still has a few surprises left. Last week I spent 2 hours fitting a new key in the TS’s top. It seems that there are diiferences in the key way widths between different years. The original TS top key way width is .1875″, the replacements was less than .185, probably closer to .181″, or so. So I spent 2 hours gingerly filing the keyslot a bit wider to accept the new .186″ square key. Once I got the key fitted in the top, it was time to check the the fit of the spindle. Had to clean up the key way in the spindle and relieve the sharp edges of the keyway, and then check the fit with the spindle lubricated. A little more polishing took care of the very tight fit. Then it was time to check the entire operation completely assembled. The assembly of the screw into the handwheel bell went as expected, however the bell would not screw into the TS top completely. Apparently, the parts from different years do not readily interchange. I had to decrease the Pitch Diameter of the threads on the bell by approx .008., and realy got lucky, it worked on the first try.
I did make a felt pad for the oil section, but the oil leaked out in about 20 minutes. The felt will be coming out.

Harry

05-04-2010, 06:15 AM – Cal Haines 

Harry,Won’t removing the pad just make things worse?

Cal

05-04-2010, 03:07 PM – beckley23 

In my experience, removing the pad will not bother me. I have a tendency to overfill with a pad. As it is, I squirt several squirts of oil in there, a lot less than I did with the pad, every so often. It seems to have worked for 20 years on my CY, and for lesser amounts of time on my other 3 Monarchs.Took the TS apart to remove the felt pad, just visible at the upper right. The pattern for the shims was cut externally with an ordinary scissors, and the interiors cut out by repeatedly scoring with a box cutter, and eventually breaking the scored lines. The sharp edges were filed to remove any burrs. The “original” thrust bearing, .365 thick, for the TS screw was replaced with a needle bearing set, .265″ thick, and a .174″ thick spacer, for total thickness of .438″. I don’t think the original worked very well with 3 balls and no spacer, lots of backlash. The micrometer dial is a ball and spring pressure adjustment that was frozen solid. Kroil didn’t help this time. I drilled a 3/32″ hole on the blind side and used a punch to get the ball out, and had to dig the spring out, so that I could clean things up and get this work.
A better picture of the thrust bearing and spacer for the screw. The thrust bearing to the right of the bell and spacer is between the bearing and the shoulder. The hole for handle in the handwheel, was/is wallowed out about .008″. I wrapped a .005″ brass strip around the handle stub and pressed it in. I’ll see how this works, right now it seems good and solid.
The TS is now about .0015″ high. I’ll recheck this after I get power back on the machine, so that the headstock center can be properly turned. Right now I’m averaging the readings.
Need a little help here. This is the temperature switch located in the roof of the module compartment, directly over the braking resistors. This is a functioning device, but the leads are in dire straights, as you can tell. I would like to replace it, but I can’t read the identifier code(s).

Harry

05-05-2010, 02:19 PM – beckley23 

Got the handlever collet attachment mounted today, but there a couple issues with it. The main issue is that I can’t get the attachment to cam over when closed. I checked the position of the fingers on the spool, when closed, and the fingers are at a position on the spool just before the flat section where it would cam over. If I remove the stepped collar on the end of the tube and move the assembly to the snap ring, about 1/8″ difference, I’m pretty sure it will cam over, at least the fingers do get on the spool’s flat section. All the other collet attachments I’ve got, cam over when the fingers are on the flat section of the spool, and I don’t think Monarch is any different in this situation. I do have a fix in mind. The finger holder presses on the tube against a shoulder, and I’m quite sure a spacer introduced here will solve the problem. The only problem is that there is an undercut at this shoulder, the only undercut on the whole exterior of the tube. I’ll do some more checking before I act.
What are the 2 holes on either side of the keyway for? My theory is they are pin holes for a proper knob on the end to install the collets. Getting my hand between the headstock cover and the actuating ring to turn the knurled ring, per Monarch’s instructions, is not easy. The set screw with the nut will be replaced with a Nyloc setscrew, that is supposed be in there.
The next picture is for Russ’s pleasure, illustrating the minimal clearance between the bracket and the knurled ring when removing the draw tube. It’s approx .010-.015″

Harry

05-06-2010, 03:22 PM – beckley23 

 I ordinarily just install the collet attachment expecting it to work, which is what I did with this one. However the more I looked at it, and compared what I was seeing with what is on Monarch’s assembly drawing, the more questions I had. Slowly, I’m getting some issues worked out. I made and installed the 1/8″ thick spacer between the shoulder and the finger holder, reassembled and reinstalled the attachment, and it works like it should. It now takes some effort to open the collet, whereas before, the least amount of effort on the handle and the collet would open. Not a good situation when actually cutting.
When I bought the attachment the new fingers were already installed in the holder, however the old fingers were also included in the package. The fingers are, what appear to be, hardened forgings. I never really looked at the old fingers and compared them to the new ones, until today. The presure plate surface of the fingers appears to to be ground on the old ones, but on the new ones this surface hasn’t been touched. After thinking about this for a few minutes, I’m going to try to install the old fingers and see how they work with regard to the spacer. This may also solve another issue I’ve noticed; the closer ring that covers all this up, does not completely cover the pressure plate in the present installation, yet the drawing shows the plate completely covered. I don’t have, yet, of the closer ring but I did take one of the fingers today. Doing this one handed is a little difficult.
I now know why there are 2 part numbers associated to the assembly number for the draw tube. The collet screws in about 6-8″ to the right.

Harry

05-06-2010, 07:45 PM – rklopp 

By the way, a great way to deburr shim stock like you used to raise the tailstock is to use a Schotchbright EXL fine convolute wheel in a bench grinder. It does a nice and gentle job of removing the edge rolled by the shears/scissors without messing up the flat faces.I used pieces of Starrett feeler gauge stock to shim my tailstock. I liked the idea of flat steel rather than potentially bowed brass. I had to add 0.014, and I’m now about 0.0005″ to 0.001″ high relative to the headstock.

05-07-2010, 03:04 PM – beckley23

 I was in error with the 2 part numbers and assembly number, in my last post, being the 2 piece draw tube, the numbers are for the 2 piece jaw tube as a unit and the finger carrier.
The spacer betewwn the finger carrier and the tube’s shoulder was removed, the finger were ground today, so they are all the same height. To do this, I made a stepped holding fixture. The smaller diameter is for the bore of the carrier and the larger diameter is such that thediamet holds the long side of the finger so that end can be at 90*, and there is wider base for hold on the magnetic chuck. Clamping, which wasn’t considered when I hatched this idea, is done with a hose clamp.
Another view of the set-up. The lower of the 2 holes has a spring and a ball for the detents in the knurled ring. The detents are “lock” for the travel of the ring when installing collets. The ring is flush with the end of the carrier when installing collets. 180* from the holes is a slot(keyway) for the ring’s key, and in between is a slot for a dog point set screw in the ring that limits the ring’s travel.
The knurled ring is in the left, or the installing postion, for the collet. At the top right you can just the end of the key’s pin. When moved to the right the key will engage one of the slots in the pressure plate. If you look very carefully at the bottom of the gap between the finger carrier and the pressure plate, you can see the end of one of the fingers.
The ring is in the right position, locking the collets clamping pressure. Still, I have not been able to get complete coverage pressure plate.
The only way I could cam over without the spacer, was to remove the stepped collar on the end, and stop directly against the snap ring.
The slotted pressure plate floats on the draw tube. The pin engages a hole in the spindle’s bearing lock nut. A 10 DP gear pitch gage fits very nicely in the slots, but the key in the knurled ring is only 1/8″ square. I’ll let you ponder that one.

Harry

05-12-2010, 02:21 PM – beckley23 

 The “Wreck” is no more
Although there are still a few odds and ends to wrap up, the “Wreck” is no more.
Last Saturday after the 2 Bobs got the power back on the lathe, they made me, as their justly deserved reward, they wanted to see it do something, so I stuck a piece of 1″ D 303 in the collet , sticking out about 4-1/2″, and did a turning test. Today I did several other turning tests, one a 17″ long 1-3/16″ D 1018 between centers, one a 1-7/16″ D O-1 approx 17″ long held in the chuck, and then a shorter piece of 1-3/16″ D 1045 about 5″ out of the jaws. In all cases the tests were very pleasing with the largest difference being .0002″ over 17″ on the centers test. I did have problems with chatter on the centers until I got the speed down to approx 200 RPM. All the other tests were done at 1000 RPM, .006″ feed. Subsequent investigation showed that the spindle taper needs some work, as the sleeve was not seating properly in the rear section. Not wanting to delay this, I switched to the chuck and different grades of steel. The results on the chuck tests were measured at .0002″, to be on the safe side, difference in D, in several spots, along the lengths of the bars.
The “Wreck” is no more.
The odds and ends are; finish up the collet system, that I still haven’t quite figured out what to do, coolant pump, get the apron switch operational, take care of a few oil seepages, if that’s possible, and see if I can quiet this lathe down a bit. The biggest problem though, is finding a new home in the shop and get out of the middle of the floor.
Harry

05-12-2010, 02:57 PM – Mcgyver 

Congratulations Harry, it looks fantastic. This thread inspires and gives lots of invaluable know-how to me as prepare to do mine

05-12-2010, 06:50 PM – DaveE907 

Outstanding! It has to be gratifying to obtain those results after the long hard slog you’ve been through to resurrect the “Wreck.”Thank you for letting us look over your shoulder.

05-12-2010, 07:12 PM – Marcibb 

WOW Harry you are amazing I can only dream of doing something like you did with this lathe Marci

05-12-2010, 08:16 PM – RC99 

Amazing work, well done..

05-16-2010, 02:50 PM – Troup

That looks fairly good, Harry

(kiwi>US translation from my 70’s phrasebook:

Far-out, cosmic, mind-bendingly awesome …. )

Thanks very loud !

05-21-2010, 03:26 PM – beckley23

Thank you, all, for the kind words. Mcgyver, I think you’re going to like the DS&G.

Now to take care of a few loose ends. The oil leaks have been tended too, although I wasn’t totally successful on one of them. The electricals should be completed tomorrow, and provision will be made for powering the future DRO. The noise source has been located, I think, and I haven’t quite decided what to do; rear spindle bearings are noisy. The collet attachment has been completed, which is the focus of this post.

All the parts of the collet attachment, except the nose adaptor and hood. The hood I have, the adaptor has to be made. The adaptor shown is from my other EE. The long tubes; the upper is the original, and the lower is the replacement. The short tube screws onto the left end of the long tube.

A closer shot of the tube end details. The new tube is a bit longer to accommodate the knurle knob, and the snap ring groove has been eliminated. The tube was shortened after the knob was properly located, 1/4″.

More parts of the closer mechanism.

When the fingers are on the flat section, on the left end, is when the closer is “cammed over” position. With the original set-up, the fingers stpped at the edge of the spool’s ramp and never “cammed over”, unless I introduced a spacer, previously shwn, or removed the retaining collar, inside of the snap ring.

Some more parts of the closer.

Assembled and installed, in the open position. The knurled knob makes it a lot easier to install and adjust the collets, than trying to get my hand on the knurled ring. I did test the system up to 3500 RPM for vibration, but I couldn’t feel anything.

Harry

 

05-23-2010, 03:53 AM – joeblow

Fantastic work. Have been watching this for ages and it’s great to see it at this stage. Well done!

06-02-2010, 02:55 PM – beckley23

The rear spindle bearings got replaced today, and what a difference in the noise level. The originals sounded like the cages were rattling around, and the bearings were very loud.

I removed the end retainer early last week to get the bearing #, New Departure 20210, called my bearing supplier for cross match. He told me they were 15* angular contact, and were a 7210 size, but didn’t know if he could get 15* contacts. I asked for pricing on ABEC 5 & 7 grades, and pointed out to him that the cages were phenolic. I’m smelling problems with this guy, and not for the first time. Called another supplier gave him the number, and he got back with me the next day, with pricing, I didn’t reach for my wallet yet, but they were ABEC 7’s, and more reasonable than the OEM. I also called MSC, after discovering the bearings in their catalog, unfortunately I misread the price as per pair, when it was each, scratch MSC. The third day, by now I had found the phone # for General Bearings in Los Angeles and played telephone tag, there’s a 3 hour time difference. While playing tag, I called my first supplier back, gave him an NTN number and finally got a price, very reasonable, but I’m not sure of the grade he’s quoting , either 5 or 7 ,and an excuse for not getting back sooner. It’s the excuse I got that got my attention. Finally, got ahold of Bob at General Bearings, got the price, and only asked one question, then ordered them. They arrived this AM, and got installed.
Bob asked me a couple of questions about whether I had a back-to-back pair or a double row angular contact. I’ve got the back-to-back pair. The bearings shipped were RHP, made in England, 7210CTRDULP3 matched set super precision, which I believe are ABEC 7’s.

In discussing this with Russ, and by the question that Bob asked, it seems there are several different bearings that Monarch used, apparently Russ has the double row angular contact. My question is why, the rear bearings are carriers, and mine are 7’s.

I don’t ordinarily make supplier recommendations, but I’m going to make one for General Bearings. There’s no dil-a-dalaling around, no funny suggestions or questions, no trying to switch to different contact angles. It was a simple straight up encounter, the way I like them.
Harry

06-02-2010, 05:16 PM – RC99

Originally Posted by beckley23
The bearings shipped were RHP, made in England, 7210CTRDULP3 matched set super precision, which I believe are ABEC 7’s.

The bearing number is interesting in that there isn’t a P3 bearing class… P4 is equivalent to Abec 7 and then P2 goes to Abec 9..

ABEC scale – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: Although this here on page 11 says otherwise P3 is between Abec 7 and 9.

http://www.nskamericas.com/cps/rde/x…t_guide_uk.pdf

06-02-2010, 05:42 PM – rkepler

Originally Posted by .RC.

The bearing number is interesting in that there isn’t a P3 bearing class… P4 is equivalent to Abec 7 and then P2 goes to Abec 9..ABEC scale – Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaEdit: Although this here on page 11 says otherwise P3 is between Abec 7 and 9.

http://www.nskamericas.com/cps/rde/x…t_guide_uk.pdf

Under DIN 620 there’s a P3 class, same as ABEC 7. P4 is also listed as the same as ABEC 7 so likely it’s splitting specs on the ABEC side.

My ’56 takes a double row angular contact in the back – a 5210ZZ. The one I got in a set from General Bearings has nothing other than “SNR 5210ZZ F35″”. As best as I can tell it’s nothing special, a ‘normal’ class bearing roughly ABEC 1 class. (I guess I could call General Bearing and check…. duh.)

06-03-2010, 03:24 PM – beckley23

After installing the new bearings, I thought I try a turning test to see if things improved. What a difference it made. I chucked the remainder of the 1018 bar I used the last time, and turned the length at approx 1200 RPM, .006″ feed, approx .020″ total reduction. The only time chatter started to show up, and then it more the sound than the resulting finish, was when it got to the chatter marks. As I did more cuts, and the diameter got smaller chatter did start showing up, but as I reduced the speed, it abated. When I started to get down to the 500-600 RPM range, I gave up and mounted the FR, put the bronze jaws in. I started out at approx 1500 RPM runiing dry for about an 1″, then adjusted the jaws for proper bearing, and started again at 1500, within 2″ I raised the speed to 3000 and stopped just before the chuck. The diameter on the slower speed was a little less than on the higher speed. The 14″ length of cut at 3000, the diameter didn’t vary more than .0002″ in one small section about 6″ from the chuck.

Harry

06-10-2010, 07:17 PM – Mcandrew1894

Harry,

Great job and persistance. Thanks for taking us along!

Dave

05-02-2011, 06:40 PM – Frederick

I read and note with great interest your monumental effort in restoring this lathe. I am in the process of stripping my 1942 round dial 10EE and would appreciate any advice on the alignment of the headstock to the bed centre line IF the headstock is REMOVED
Frederick

05-02-2011, 07:21 PM – beckley23

There is no further advice I can, other than what has been said in your topic. The inside flat and V ways will govern the alignment. Perhaps the best advice is; don’t remove the headstock unless absolutely necessary.
Harry

02-08-2012, 08:24 PM – axkiker 

Originally Posted by beckley23
There is no further advice I can, other than what has been said in your topic. The inside flat and V ways will govern the alignment. Perhaps the best advice is; don’t remove the headstock unless absolutely necessary.
Harry

Ohhh wow I just saw this thread and noticed you are in Louisville as well. Heck I may know you…

I really want to see this project as I want to eventually find a Monarch

Shoot me a PM whenever you get a chance and maybe I can drop by one day your not busy.

thanks