The Wreck, Section 2

This is a copy and paste of an old forum on PracticalMachinist.com.

The original post is right here

The Wreck

12-04-2007, 10:47 PM – beckley23 

Approx 3 weeks ago work on the “wreck” came to a screeching halt. Everything had been removed from the bed, and I got my first good inspection of the ways. All of the ways have wear, not surprising, but the amount of wear on the inside face of the front way, is approx .015″ on the face, or .023″ approx straight down. In addition, I can’t properly manipulate my 48″ camelback straight edge to get a good spotting. After some consideration, I called and got quotes, from 2 grinding shops, for getting the bed ground. Let’s just say that grinding is out of the question, it ain’t gonna happen. Before anybody suggests Commerce in Dallas, they were at 2000.00+.
A couple of things to consider in my decision making process, and the primary is; I don’t need this machine for my shop. Another is that space is at a premium, and I don’t like machines crammed together. I need to be able to get carts, forklifts, etc , in between machines. The only saving graces of this lathe are; the headstock, gearbox and electrics seem to be good and it is a 30″ ‘er, everything else is crap.
Decision time; do I scrap it out, or do I scrape it in. I’ll need a special straight edge that I can manipulate, I’ll need a larger surface plate to spot this straight edge for scraping, and I’ll need V blocks for the 65* V ways, plus the will power to do this again. I’ve already scraped one hardened bed, and it’s not something I look forward too.
One thing else; every time I use my good EE, I just can’t bear the thought of scrapping this one out, knowing that it can be just as good or better with a little bit of work.
After 3 weeks of pondering this problem, I reached the decision to scrape this lathe, and items have been purchased to this end.
The procedure will be the one I used to recondition the CK, the inside flat way gets scraped first followed by the inside V way, followed by the outside flat way, followed by the outside face of the outside V way, then the inside face. The inside face will most likely get some special treatment to remove the bulk of the material by means other than scraping, this aspect has yet to be finalized, but I do have a couple of ideas. Then the carriage and related members, then the tailstock.
Harry

12-04-2007, 11:23 PM – 220swift 

Harry

Please take pictures so the rest of us can follow along.

I find it fascinating and can’t imagine the work (both mental & physical) it takes to scrape in something that size.

Hal

12-05-2007, 01:57 AM – blackboat 

Dang, I kept reading, waiting for the part where you were going to give up and ask for someone to come get it

I think I would be looking at rigging some sort of sled to use even an angle grinder for roughing work on that one way. And making sure the Biax is all tuned and ready to go.

Out of curiosity Harry, have you ever had Schmiede in TN quote on regrinding? Know nothing about them past their website, just had turned them up looking for grinders a few years back.

Good luck,
Rob

12-05-2007, 09:18 AM – Knguyen 

Harry,
The amount of wear is pretty deep, I wonder the hardened layer will remain after the grinding and scraping . Any way, I am sure there is great interest in following your project and see how it is done by the master. Please take lots of pictures along the way. Any thought of making a CD/ DVD of the project . I have a 30″ and am in the slow process of gathering all the tools , tips (and courage) to recondition it. Thanks for posting.
Khanh

12-05-2007, 10:22 PM – beckley23 

Schmiede in Tullahoma was the other quote at 1850.00. At least they gave it an honest effort, Commerce whipped the quote out off the seat of his pants.

I don’t question the reasoning behind the quotes, and grinding the bed would be undoubtedly easier and most likely better than what I’m able to do scraping, especially regarding the flatness of the surface, in the long term life of the rebuild. There is another factor, often overlooked, at least I’ve never heard it discussed directly, and that is there is a finite dollar value on the machine. We’ve all seen the prices on ebay, basically in the mid 4 figures, and heard the stories of auctions, a little higher or better. I’m only going to pour so much money in this machine, which should be somewhere in the mid 4 figures or less. I have to consider the future expenses, just to get this “wreck” operational. I know it needs at least a bearing in the apron, all the bearings for the TA, and the carriage gibs, most of the feed screws, possibly the apron pump, new meter units, and the list could go on. Taken individually, these items don’t cost much, but when all is said and done you’ve got a big number; and this is par for the course. By the time I get this machine operational the only way I’m going to get my money back, is to work it.Rob, I’ve been thinking about the sled idea for years, and I just may do it. I bought a turret lathe slide tool on ebay last week with this in mind. At the very least, I’ll have another piece of tooling for my J&L turret lathe.

Pictures, I’ll post a few. Remember that the reconditioning process is a well thought out plan, scraping is straight forward grunt work. The key to the process I’m using, listed above, is the scraping order of the bed. The inside ways are 1st, specifically the flat way. Once I have a “datum plane” on the flat way, I can develop the “datum planes” of the inside V way. The only tools I’ll use are the V blocks, the level, the straight edge and 2 matched gauge blocks. The V and gauge blocks are for the level. These 2 ways will take the bulk of the time, because so much depends on them. I can assure you that there are a lot checks and cross checks. The outer ways go a whole lot faster, mainly because I can use a DTI for a lot of the checks. The process works, this is the way I did the CK a few years ago.

About the CK. The lathe has been leveled twice, once when I reconditioned it, and once when I relocated it shortly after the reconditioning. Level has not been checked since, about 4 years. The lathe has been used occassionally until this past summer, when it really started earning its keep. I had several jobs that required a good portion of the bed, and I never had to adjust the tailstock transverse setting, except on the last job, and then it was a couple tenths.

Harry

12-07-2007, 03:03 AM – dplain 

Harry,

A year or two ago Lucas Precision quoted $3500 to grind a 10EE bed.

Dave

12-07-2007, 11:04 AM – Alain 

Hand scrapeing and reconditioning
HarryI read all your articles in HSM and was very impressed with the work you did on the Monarch. I purchased a Monarch CK with an extra bed, 4′ straight edge (Monarch as well) and made the tools to slowly bring the lathe back to fair working order.After swapping beds and a ton of cleaning and some hand scrapeing, it’s is working ok but I still have a ‘ways’ to go… pun intended here…This may be a hobby but I would not have purchased this lathe or be this interested in machining if it were not for people like you. Keep up the posts! I love the adventure (my wife curses them).ThanksAl

12-07-2007, 01:54 PM – amoretti 

Possible bed grinder
Last year I had my 10ee reground/rebuilt by Rick Arneberg in Roberts WI. rarnebergatyahoodotcom
You might get a quote from him.He did a good job for me and I thought his price was quite reasonable.Cheers, John In Wyo

12-18-2007, 10:09 PM – beckley23 

Since my first posting in this topic a bit of progress has been made. I have purchased a 24″ X 36″ X 5″ surface plate, grade is initially B, and the last calibration was sometime in the ’90’s. It’s a gamble, but I think things will work out, at least the new straight edge I just made seems to be flat and straight, plus the other straight edges I have are checking out. The swivel test, with several straight edges, was performed at several locations, and I haven’t noticed anything unusual or strange. The new straight edge is made from 1-1/4″ X 2-1/4″ X 48″ Meehanite, and this one I can control on the V ways. I have also made made 2 sets of V blocks, the bar stock was about 7″ long, and I said “what the heck”. If one pair goes bad, that was your practice set. As it is, both sets are good, but they are not matched to each other. This was the first time I got use my 135 LB B&S 3 axis toolmakers vise, which has been sitting on the bench for several years. If you ever run across one of these vises, at a reasonable price, I would recommend a buy. They seem to be far better quality, and are definitely more rigid than the ones I see in the catalogs.

I am toying with the idea of making a sled to fit the inside ways, and lining the slides with Multifil 426, so that I can basically plane the inside face of the front V way. The sled will make use of “slide tool” from a turret lathe, and for those of you that are not familiar with a slide tool I’m including a picture.

A survey of the bed reveals at least .003″ wear in each of the flat ways, and the inside flat has scoring, partly from the carriage dropping down , bad apron oil pump, and chips getting caught under the carriage as well as the tailstock. The scoring runs from about 3″ in front of the headstock to the right end of the bed. The inside V way has about .0025″ wear from what I could determine with level readings, and the outside face of the front V way has about the same.

The motor and backgear has been reinstalled in the base, mainly to get stuff off my floor. The motor shop got the critter nests out of the interior and serviced it.

The slide tool;

The straight edge’s working surface,it’s sitting on the surface plate, it’s not a very good picture, but:

The V blocks, they were made several weeks ago from CRS, a seem to have stabilized, they’ll be checked again before use;

A view of the inside flat way looking left showing the scoring. I have very lightly take a scraping pass;

Harry

12-19-2007, 02:47 PM – Knguyen 

Harry, for us novice, could you explain how the slide tool works? Thanks

12-19-2007, 10:06 PM – beckley23 

Slide tools are like boring heads except they are more heavily constructed. The one shown is a shank mount, obviously, they also come in flange mounts. There is a locking lever on the other side you don’t see, and it is gibbed. This one is a screw feed, but I have a couple others that have a long lead spiral feed for rapid action. I use those for undercutting, snap ring grooves, etc.

The lathe’s leveling was tweaked today, so that one end of the bubble is touching a “0” reference mark both longitudinally and transversely. That will be the reference mark for the entire project. Level was checked on both inside ways, at the headstock end only, and they agreed . The level will only be used on top of the blocks, and the bed has divided into sections corresponding to half the level length. There are the white reference marks between the front ways for this purpose. The V and gauge blocks have been referenced for L & R, and scraping has begun. It’s going to be long project, I think this bed is a lot harder than my other EE and the CK beds. There is one pecularity of inside ways of Monarch lathes that I first noticed when I scraped the CK, which is; the bed section under the headstock is soft. When scraping and going from one section to the other, the pressure and approach angle has to be altered.
Harry

12-20-2007, 02:31 PM – Scott@monarch

EE bed
Harry I have about six used EE beds here and I am sure one of them has to be in very good condition. If you are interested in a used bed let me know and I can pull them out and have them checked. $500.00 plus shipping.Scott Foster
Monarch lathes
937-492-4111

12-20-2007, 03:00 PM – WILLEO6709

Scott – I think his wreck is a 30 incher…. doubt you’ll part with one of those for $500

12-20-2007, 09:11 PM – beckley23 

Here’s the link to the starting topic, so that it doesn’t get lost in the future.
New Toy-It’s a Project(Wreck)
Harry

12-20-2007, 09:56 PM – beckley23

Scott, I’ll be calling tomorrow.
Harry

12-20-2007, 11:26 PM – beckley23 

A bit more on technique.
The first picture is the level on a 2′ long parallel, the parallel is on the gage blocks. The blocks are on either side of the most worn section of the inside flat way, and are on scraped surfaces. This allows me to monitor the progress of going straight down. Progress is also monitored with the level on the blocks at a closer spacing. At the present time the headstock end is down .0003-.0005. I had the same problem on the CK, and is mostly because of the soft bed section, I got a bit over aggressive on the 1st couple of cycles. By the time the bed is finished this will be taken care of.
This type of monitoring will be performed throughout the project, and as this progresses the spacings and locations of the blocks will be altered in between the bed markings, and towards the end the level will be directly on the bed as another check

The second picture is the spotting of the way right after the 1st picture was taken. If you look closely there is spotting at the top of the picture, about 4′ from the left end of the bed, and the most worn section is obvious.


Harry

01-05-2008, 06:38 PM – beckley23 

Grand Canyon or Great Rift Valley
Take your choice of titles. The scraping is going very slowly, but progress is being made. Scraping a hard bed is not a fast operation. You can’t really plow the iron off, nor can long roughing strokes be used, the tool just skids. So it is basically all finish scraping, and the more you scrape off, flattening the surface, the longer each cycle takes and the more the blades have to be sharpened. I’ve tried long strokes and finally settled on something close to 3/16″ maybe less. Each cycle consists of spotting scraping, stoning and cleaning with denatured alcohol. After 3 or 4 spottings the straight edge has to have blueing applied, which causes a problem on the first spotting-smearing. Right now it’s not a major problem but as the end approaches, I’m really going to have to pay attention to how much blueing goes on the straight edge so that I don’t get spotting messed up by smearing. Right now it’s a help due to the amount of material to be removed, and considering the small amount removed in each cycle. My guess it is 15-20 cycles to remove .001″, just about my limit for a day, mostly because my back can’t stand anymore.
The closer I get to completion, the more the progress has to be checked with the level. Presently, what has been scraped is with in .0002″ in the 4′ length of the straight edge.
The Grand Canyon or Great Rift Valley is located in the most deeply scored section of the inside flat way. In addition it is canted due to the way carriage wore. At present approx .0066″ has been scraped off the way. The valley is the dull unscraped area between the outer edges, the scraping shows up as a brighter sparklely area surrounding the worn area. At present it is about 7″ or so long.
Harry

01-15-2008, 10:01 PM – beckley23 

Finally got the inside flat way finished today. Total amount removed is .0083″, and the “Great Rift Valley” constituted a good portion. I didn’t get it totally removed, but the remmant won’t interfere with anything. It is centered about 25″ from the headstock end of the bed. If I have done my trig right I have about .0025″ to remove from each face of the inside V way, to get the proper amount of drop to maintain the relationship between the inside ways, and hopefully not have to scrape the headstock for that reason.
The level is a very interesting tool. We mostly use it as a comparative tool, but it can be used as a measuring tool, in a fashion, especially when used in the manner I’m using it on blocks. The level is 15″ long and calibrated .0005″/ft. When the blocks are on the end, 1 division of movement is .0004″, if the blocks are 6″ apart that same movement is .00025″. I think you get the idea. If not this will become clear as I progress.
You can also estimate, fairly accurately, the distance the bubble is from the reference mark(s). Admittedly it is a judgement call whether it is .0002, .00025, or .0003″, and I do, do a bit of head scratching.
Anyway, the inside flat way is within .00025″ one end to the other, according to the level. Readings were take every 3-3/4″.
I also figured out how to rough scrape hardened iron when I got to the last 11″ of the bed. Increase the stroke and speed, and bear down as hard as you can. It will wear you out, but the material does come off. I didn’t use the straight edge to spot, just went at it, and check with DTI every so often. I stopped roughing when I had about .002″ to go, mainly because I didn’t know how deep the chatter marks were.

Some more pictures.Remnants of “The Great Rift Valley”. The first was taken last Friday, and the second one was taken today. There were 3 scraping cycles between the 2, not much of a difference,. The squiggly marks in the 2nd picture are scraper marks, I’ll see if I can hide them.

Level on blocks checking the inside V way. Notice the blue mark between the bed ways on the right side. That is where the bed hardness changes. Under the headstock is soft, beyond it is hard. It does present some difficulties.

Checking the rear way way against the inside flat way. Notice the shim stock under the level. That is a .004″ shim and it moved the bubble about 12 divisions.


Harry

01-19-2008, 01:57 AM – JRouche

Quote Originally Posted by beckley23 View Post
Remnants of “The Great Rift Valley”. The first was taken last Friday, and the second one was taken today. There were 3 scraping cycles between the 2, not much of a difference,.
Harry
Hey Harry, sorry for interrupting the great progress report..You actually can see the amount of “flatness” achieved. Im sure you staring at the bed has you seeing ALL the imperfections but.. On the first photo you can get an idea of the almost concaved depression “shadowing of light” and on the second photo you can see its oh so much more uniformly flat with just the three very shallow lines. You can tell they are shallow cause if you just look left or right they are scraped out and flat. They wont have any effect on bearing at all, maybe just hold a slight amount of way lube is all.All Im trying to say is GREAT JOB!! The scraping is excellent, from the pictures and good photos. This by the way is being sucked up onto disc for prosperity.. JRouche

01-30-2008, 10:04 PM – beckley23 

I’m just about finished with the 1st 4′ of the inside face of the inside V way. This is very difficult surface to spot, it is 5/16″ approx wide and the straight edge weighs 40 LBS, and to scrape. I can only scrape from 2 directions, on the flat way I was able to scrape from 4 directions. I’ll get the inside face finished then scrape the outside face.
One of the mains considerations when employing the sequence I’m using is to sure that I’m scraping straight down. The only reference for these surfaces is the section under the headstock and approx the 1st 8-10″ beyond. The only check I have is the level, and then it can only be used with confidence for the distance mentioned above, and it must agree with the flat way, naturally.
Another problem I’m having is shop temperature and the level. I started noticing this about half way through the flat way. I would leave in the evening with the level reading one thing, and check the first thing again the next morning, and it had moved .0005-.001″. I also noticed that problem resolved itself after the shop had gotten over 50-55* F, about 3 hours later. I have infrared gas heaters, and I don’t heat when I’m closed. The most unusal aspect of this is that the temperature seems to effect the headstock end more than the tailstock end. Maybe it’s the location in the shop where I’m doing this, and maybe it’s because it’s winter, I did the CK in the middle to late summer, and in a different shop location. Anyway whatever the reason, it is another factor to consider.
More pictures.Checking progress on the inside V way, when the readings agree in this position and about 10″ further to the right, I’ll start on the last 11″ of this face. I’ve got good spotting for most of the length, but I had to make a correction in where I scrape in order to drop the right side a bit. The soft section of the bed is a problem maker. At this point the way has been lowered approx .004″, need 1-2 tenths more.

A chip in the bed, I didn’t do this, approx centered over the first sheer bridge.

The handwheel has been repaired. I picked it up in late December. It is shown on the welding alignment fixture that I made for the welder. The missing spoke was cut from the plate. The 2 holes, there a 2 that you don’t see, by the rim are for screws to locate the rim in relation to the shaft. The shaft has a stop collar for correct elevation of the hub. I still need to clean up the welds and blend them.


Harry

01-30-2008, 11:55 PM – Toms Wheels 

Harry, How many hours do you think you’ve invested so far just the scraping. It sure looks like great progress cleaning up the condition of those ways. Are the Vee blocks intended to span the vee ways, or sit on them to check for DOC of the scraping, I don’t quite understand that part or your work.

01-31-2008, 12:51 AM – beckley23 

A WAG would be 60 hours, there’s about 8 hours on the V way so far, and the rest on the flat way. I’m using this project as filler between the money jobs, so I’m not really keeping time sheets.
The V blocks are a matched set, and I’m using them the same way I used the matched blocks on the flat way. They can only be used on the same way, or I can use one on the V way and a riser on the flat way to check parallelism between the 2 ways. I’ll be getting into that aspect when I start scraping the outside face of the inside V way, to indicate parallelism to the inside flat way. See the 3rd picture in 1-15 post. I’m using them in the manner shown, to support the level, so that I can effectively tell what I’ve done and tell me where to concentrate next. In this context, you could say I’m using the level as a measuring instrument. I can’t use the V blocks to check the V ways against each other, due to the difference in the way heights.
Harry

01-31-2008, 02:19 AM – macona 

Moglice putty would fill in that chip real nice. One of my past lathes someone had taken a hacksaw to the way in an attempt to widen the gap and then gave up. Filled it in with moglice and other than the black stripe you would never even know it is there.

I would save that for when you know if and how much you are going to have to build up the saddle to get it back to height. You just can mix a little at a time.

02-19-2008, 09:34 PM – beckley23 

I got finished with the inside face of the inside V way, I think, there may be a correction needed later, today.
The first picture is a spotting of the inside face. The medium is applied a little heavier than I like at this point, but it won’t show up in a picture if any lighter.
The second and third pictures are of the level, and how I’m using it. In the second picture the V block on the right is on the 4-1/3 mark(approx 32-1/2″ from the left end of the bed), and the level is in the same spot in the next picture checking transversely. This is the low spot on the outside face of the V way. To the left the face rises about .002″, and to the right it rises about .001″. The objective is get the outside face flat and parallel to the inside face, and to have them parallel to the inside flat way. Once this objective has been reached, I have datum surfaces for the outer ways.

The fourth picture is checking how much has been removed from the inside face. I will monitor this measurement while scraping the outside face. So far approx .004″ straight down has been removed.


Harry

02-20-2008, 09:55 PM- Mark M. 

Harry. Nice work. I really enjoy your efforts and have followed this and your other scraping projects with much interest. I have a question.
You said,
“The fourth picture is checking how much has been removed from the inside face. I will monitor this measurement while scraping the outside face. So far approx .004″ straight down has been removed.”
You are taking a micrometer reading with the mic anvil on the underside of the V way in conjuction with a V block. This is understood. All the lathes that I am aware of have shown that the underside is just a milled surface to except the tailstock clamping block. Is this a reliable reference datum to take your reading from?
I am in no way questioning your talents or abilities in your project just trying to learn as much from your efforts as much as possible. Perhaps I may have missed something??
I look forward to your next photo posting….Mark

02-20-2008, 10:43 PM – beckley23 

When I started the project, I took a mike reading at that spot on the V way, and at the same spot on the flat way. I have been monitoring this dimension to see how much I have removed. On the flat way I removed a little over .008″, and I’m trying to remove the same amount on the V way straight down, in the hope that I don’t have to scrape the headstock because of way height differences. I don’t think I’m going to be successful. One of the reasons is that if I move the mike a little bit, I get a different dimension. Dumb me, I didn’t check this before starting, but it is a good gauge of how much has been removed; whether it has any practical value remains to be seen. Another reason, is that I really don’t know how much has to come off the outside face, I can estimate it, but I won’t guarantee it. The face will be done when the objectives have been met. If this was being ground, different story.
Harry

02-21-2008, 01:56 AM – rimcanyon 

Harry,
how do you align the inner face of the vee way (i.e. so that it is parallel with the lathe axis)?
Dave

02-21-2008, 06:01 PM – beckley23 

Dave,
I’ve been waiting for that question.
The scraping sequence is; the inside flat way first, followed by the inside face, then the outside face of the inside V way, then the outer ways. The scraping of these ways starts at the headstock end, only. The straight edge is 4′ long, and the area spotted by it is finished, before I start on the last 11″ of the way. Then I only scrape the last 11″ until it is in agreement with the first 48″.
The ways under the headstock are virgin, they have only supported the headstock and in essence are unworn. It is of paramount importance that these datums be maintained during scraping, in other words GO STRAIGHT DOWN. Checks with the level at frequent intervals helps insure this, and quickly warns you if there is a deviation. In addition, these checks will also give hints if there is problem with the straight edge, which there hasn’t been.
I started with the flat way, because once scraped it will be a datum for the V way, especially when the second face is scraped. Look at the 2nd and 3rd pictures. I’ve only shown one spot on the bed being checked, but every station(spot) will be checked, as will stations in between. In all cases the level readings should to be the same, in reality they will vary a tiny bit. From what I have observed on my CK, these “tiny bits” are inconsequentual, they just don’t show up in the work. When these 2 ways are completed, they will be in the same plane, and they are the reference surfaces for the outer ways. If the original axis has changed, it’s not going to be very much. If I had to guess it’s less than .0005″ in any direction.
Harry
02-21-2008, 11:33 PM – blackboat
Harry, maybe I’m just being particularly dumb at the moment, but I’m having trouble with your use of the vee block for checking the inside face of the rear prismatic way.
It seems to me that as you spot the inside face to the straightedge, you will be straightening out that face. I would think that the wear that exists on the rear face would give a false reading on the level as you work on the front, since the section is changing?
Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to get my head around this,
Thanks,
Rob
02-22-2008, 01:33 AM – beckley23
The only section the level and blocks have any validity is the headstock section and perhaps the next 8-10 inches, remember the TS does not get that close, anywhere else beyond is purely guesswork. As the worn section is eliminated, then the use of V block and level becomes more dependable, but not totally reliable.
Let me illustrate. I was very close to being finished with the last 11″ of the inside face, and checking with the blocks and level, showing a bump, approx .0003″+ high on right, when I put one block on the last section and one block on the first section, and I’m getting good spotting, not perfect, with straight edge for 4′ , 37″ on the first section, 11″ on the last section. There are lot of unknowns when the condition of the outside unscraped face is considered. Do you continue scraping until the bump is eliminated, or do you bow to caution and start on the outside face, and see if you really have an issue when you start working that section of the outside face. The “issue” , if present, will show up like a sore thumb, and can be easily attended to. I’m bowing to caution.
If you are referring to the picture with the block and mike, that for all intents and purposes is extraneous information, and as I found out, is approxiamate info only. I’m using that information to measure how much has been scraped off.
Harry

02-22-2008, 11:32 AM – blackboat 

Thanks Harry, your explanation covers what I was thinking. I neglected to think about that way being the tail way and that it should be relatively good near the HS.
Rob

02-22-2008, 11:24 PM – rj1939 

Can’t imagine taking on a job like that…….would love to be there to see some of what you are doing in person. How is the hardness in the ways holding up? Are you getting into softer material underneath?
If so, has anybody ever attempted “flame hardening” with a torch?
My hat is off to anybody saving old iron.

02-23-2008, 01:15 AM – beckley23 

The hardness hasn’t changed, and I will be surprised if it does. The only spot on the bed ways that are soft are the sections under the headstock.
Harry 

02-23-2008, 01:23 AM – rke[pler 

Quote Originally Posted by rj1939 View Post

Can’t imagine taking on a job like that…….would love to be there to see some of what you are doing in person. How is the hardness in the ways holding up? Are you getting into softer material underneath?

If so, has anybody ever attempted “flame hardening” with a torch?

The Monarch lathe beds are hardened to something in excess of 1/8″ deep, I think most anyone would scrap the lathe than try scraping the rest of the bed to that depth (it’d be a fortune in way material under the saddle for that).

I don’t think you could harden with just a torch. All of the images I’ve seen describing the process has a number of torch heads traveling the bed immediately followed (like 1″ later) by a water spray. You’d need to get the surface up to something like 2000 degF and chill it down immediately after. The timing has to be right for it to work at all well.

02-23-2008, 06:13 PM – beckley23

Here is a tool I use to help determine progress. I’m primarily looking for consistence in the readings. If you look at the charts for the inside V way, I bet you can tell what has and hasn’t been scraped.

Harry

02-24-2008, 01:33 AM – rj1939

Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
The Monarch lathe beds are hardened to something in excess of 1/8″ deep, I think most anyone would scrap the lathe than try scraping the rest of the bed to that depth (it’d be a fortune in way material under the saddle for that).
I don’t think you could harden with just a torch. All of the images I’ve seen describing the process has a number of torch heads traveling the bed immediately followed (like 1″ later) by a water spray. You’d need to get the surface up to something like 2000 degF and chill it down immediately after. The timing has to be right for it to work at all well.
That is kind of what I was wondering. Years ago when I was in college the metallurgy instructor gave a brief demonstration on the method of hardening casting surfaces. Too many years have passed and what I recall was that he was claiming that the mass of the casting would pull the heat out quick enough to harden…….but he was not lingering on the surface long enough to really get any depth.

03-03-2008, 09:59 PM – beckley23

New Toy(On Loan)

On loan from a member here is a King Tool- Way Alignment Tool. I was finally able to get a bit of work done today, so I made the bed way “V” tube. The tube sent with the tool was to large to work on the EE bed. My understanding there are 2 sizes of tube, 1-7/8″ D and the one I made is 1-1/2″ D(actually 1.475″ by the time I got done with the clean up cut). The width of the narrowest part of the radiused opening in the large tube is approx .650″, and on the small one approx .480″. I think it should be a bit smaller, but I used a 5/16″ corner rounding end mill, and no way was I going to be able to get the cutter in the slot satisfactorily and still be able to use the tube. It works, but just barely; the tube sits a little lower on the V way than I would like on the inside V way.

The jury is still out on the usefulness of the tool. I really haven’t had a chance to use it.
Anyway, a ouple of pictures.


Harry

03-03-2008, 10:34 PM – peterh5322

There were two “official” versions of the King Way alignment tool. 300 and 100, I think.

When I purchased, at auction, an unknown version of that tool, it turned out, I believe, to be a prototype for a 50 way alignment tool.

Rimcanyon (Dave) has the dimensions of his 300, another member’s 100, and my putative 50 King Way alignment tools.

It is possible to duplicate the tools from the patent literature (U.K. and U.S), with reference to some of the dimensions of the actual tools.

03-04-2008, 12:59 AM – 220swift

Thanks Harry for sharing your process.

Hal

03-04-2008, 01:28 PM – skadisak

King Way alignment tool

A couple years back I took a hand scraping class from Rich King (Journeyman machine tool rebuilder) in Minneapolis. His dad was the builder of the King Way tools. Rich is a nice guy and sometimes advertises his classes on ebay. He demonstrated the way alignment tool during the class. If anyone is interested in getting some experience scraping he is a good source. He also offered me advice on building an alignment tool though I have not taken him up on it. I would be very interested in dimensions, etc if Rimcanyon (Dave) would be willing to share.

Steve Kadisak

Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post

There were two “official” versions of the King Way alignment tool. 300 and 100, I think.

When I purchased, at auction, an unknown version of that tool, it turned out, I believe, to be a prototype for a 50 way alignment tool.

Rimcanyon (Dave) has the dimensions of his 300, another member’s 100, and my putative 50 King Way alignment tools.

It is possible to duplicate the tools from the patent literature (U.K. and U.S), with reference to some of the dimensions of the actual tools

03-04-2008, 02:39 PM – peterh5322 

Due to health issues, I became unable to participate further in the King Way repro project, although I am certainly interested in its successful completion.
I made my putative King Way 50 available to Dave, and it and his 300 and another’s 100 were measured in Dave’s shop.
I believe Dave has all the measurements, as well as some ideas for making the repros using available tools.
The putative 50 doesn’t have enough room for the standard King Way level unit, but the 300 certainly does, and the 100 may.
I have Rich’s scraping tape (which I converted to DVD) and it is quite instructive.
Rich King’s tapes and his instruction are highly recommended.

03-05-2008, 01:09 AM – shapeaholic 

King-way alignment tool

Peter,skadisak and company,

I too have been working on a replica of the King-way tool. I have made some preliminary drawings and have been collecting some materials.

I was fortunate to receive some information from a board member who beat me out on an ebay auction last fall, but I’d be interested in some more details if I could get them. ( I also was out bid on one about two weeks ago. it went for $450.00)

It seems like a fairly simple thing to replicate, once I have some basic dimensions to work from.

Chers

Pete

ps. perhaps we should start a different thread on this so we don’t hijack Harry’s VERY interesting rebuild tale.

03-05-2008, 01:11 AM – peterh5322 

“perhaps we should start a different thread on this so we don’t hijack Harry’s VERY interesting rebuild tale.”
Yes, the King Way Alignment Tool should be a new thread.

03-05-2008, 07:16 PM – skadisak 

new thread -King Way

Agreed, and apologies to Harry. I will post a new thread under General. Thanks Harry for posting the pictures and well written desciption of requalifying the 10EE bed.

Steve Kadisak

Note to Moderators – maybe there should be a “machine rebuilding” forum on the board as many aspects of rebuilding cross over machine make and type.

Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post

“perhaps we should start a different thread on this so we don’t hijack Harry’s VERY interesting rebuild tale.”Yes, the King Way Alignment Tool should be a new thread.

03-10-2008, 04:36 AM – M. Moore 

It’s like a cliffhanger tv show…..how did the ways turn out???
Very inspiring thread. The detailed info on how scraping is done for a very specific job is excellent. I can’t claim to follow it all but I do get the gist of it.
As someone who has never done any scraping but I have flattened a few hand plane bottoms….I have a question, would a diamond hone work to do some of the rough in scraping? I have one for flattening the backs of chisels and plane blades and it is about 2″ wide and 8″ long. It removes metal, very consistent cutting action, very flat.
Am I wrong in thinking that the scraped “look” of the finish is there to provide room for the oil to create a bearing surface? Therefore if you can remove the metal quickly and then scrape for the bearing surface and the correct number of spots wouldn’t that speed up the work?
Michael Moore (aspiring machinist)
Last edited by M. Moore; 03-10-2008 at 04:37 AM. Reason: spelling

03-10-2008, 05:43 AM – peterh5322

“Am I wrong in thinking that the scraped “look” of the finish is there to provide room for the oil to create a bearing surface?”
That “look”, which varies with the manufacturer, and with the technician’s skill, is indeed for lubricative reasons.
With scraping, it is possible to get absolutely flat surfaces, but absolutely smooth surfaces, which is what grinding gives you, is not necessarily the most desirable.
Monarch has flame hardened all its bed ways since 1936, so the beds have to be ground flat, otherwise they couldn’t afford to make the machines.
Monarch doesn’t flame harden the carriage or the tailstock, and definitely not the headstock, so the carriage and the tailstock mating ways are machined so as to provide for oiling.

03-10-2008, 12:43 PM – Jerald MI.

Another problem I’m having is shop temperature and the level. I started noticing this about half way through the flat way. I would leave in the evening with the level reading one thing, and check the first thing again the next morning, and it had moved .0005-.001″. I also noticed that problem resolved itself after the shop had gotten over 50-55* F, about 3 hours later. I have infrared gas heaters, and I don’t heat when I’m closed. The most unusal aspect of this is that the temperature seems to effect the headstock end more than the tailstock end. Maybe it’s the location in the shop where I’m doing this, and maybe it’s because it’s winter, I did the CK in the middle to late summer, and in a different shop location. Anyway whatever the reason, it is another factor to consider.
Beckly23- thank you for your efforts reporting technique and progress. I find this interesting as I am certain many others do.
I believe your “level” problem is related to thermal expansion. You might notice one end of the bed is of greater mass than the other so, one end expands at a greater rate.
Where I worked it was imperative any large item be allowed to sit in the machine environment for 24 hours to expand/contract unifirmally prior to NC machining to achieve first run certification. Our machine area was heated around the clock but still had temp variation due to outside temps.
Keep up the good work and reporting!-Jerald

03-10-2008, 03:35 PM – peterh5322

“The most unusal aspect of this is that the temperature seems to effect the headstock end more than the tailstock end.”
“I believe your ‘level’ problem is related to thermal expansion. You might notice one end of the bed is of greater mass than the other so, one end expands at a greater rate.”
That, plus the beds are made of an alloy which is specially formulated for compatibility with Monarch’s patented flame hardening process. There are patents for the burners which implements this process, and there are patents on the alloy itself. The two combine to make the flame hardened bed possible.
I believe the alloy changes during such hardening (I am not a ferrous metals alloy expert by any means, but I do understand the concepts) and with a Monarch bed you have the headstock area which is not flame hardened, and the remainder of the bed which is flame hardened.
So, the headstock end, which is not hardened, will be in the unchanged form of the alloy, whereas the remainder of the bed, which is hardened, will be in the changed form of the alloy.
And, Harry is now working primarily on the flame hardened area, while using the headstock end, which is not flame hardened, as the reference.
So, one might expect that the coefficients of expansion would be different, and it just could be that the unhardened headstock end has the higher coefficient of expansion.
Under such conditions of significant temperature change, say from the dead of night in an unheated shop to the middle of the day in a possibly heated shop, the variation will be the greatest.
Which means the work done during the day, while good during that day, may appear to be considerably off, with respect to the reference, when measured again at the beginning of the next day, while under different temperature conditions.
I gather than for most of Monarch’s more productive years, the factory was operated under 24/7 conditions. Certainly during the war, but possibly afterwards, too, as customers’ retooling for the post-war period was being accomplished.
So, the machines on the erection floor, in various stages of completion, would most likely be under more-or-less stable temperature conditions all throughout the erection process.
This, then, is my (somewhat long-winded) explanation for the observed variation being the greatest under the headstock end.

03-10-2008, 04:45 PM – yoyo

Of course I’m not an metallurgist and I’m just ventilating some thoughts.
I don’t think the mass has something to do with the different expansions. Expansion on this scale will be pretty linear and only depends on the length. The height at the tailstock is the same as the height at the headstock so the expansion will be the same percentage and distance in height.
However if the hardened part has less expansion it would be possible that the base gets wider (horizontal) than the bed. Resulting in the bed getting hollow like a banana.
Maybe the floor should be checked if it stays level, just to make sure.

03-10-2008, 10:17 PM – beckley23

It’s going to be a long “cliffhanger”, I work of the EE as a filler job, and only when I have a fairly significant window to do so. Right now I have to make parts for my product line, and do jobs for my customers. I’ve been booked for at least the past month, and it doesn’t look like it’s going to let up anytime soon, fortunately.
The level and temperature situation is in hand, it’s more of an inconvenience than anything else. I heat the shop with 5 overhead infrared gas 60,000 BTU heaters individually controlled. I also have a 6000W 3PH electric heater in close proximity to the EE, which is not aimed at the lathe, but at the bench. I very rarely turn on more than 1 gas heater at a time. The temperature in the morning has been hovering around 38-45* F, before I turn on the heat. This is when I notice the level problems, once the temperature gets over 53-55* the problem goes away. It generally takes 2-4 hours, depending on what the outside nighttime temperature was. We are now getting into spring, the past weekend excluded, and I think the temperature situation will be taken care of.
If you study the charts I posted in my last post, you will notice the temperature affect. The longitudinal readings are off by approx 1/2 a division, remember my reference 0, and they are consistently off for the length of the bed. It just depends on the time of day, and the shop temperature; and that was a cold day. Personally, I think the concrete floor is to blame.
Harry
Last edited by beckley23; 03-11-2008 at 09:29 PM. Reason: change a word

03-11-2008, 12:51 AM – M. Moore

Harry, it would be great to see you in the photo holding the scraper as if you were taking a cut. Also would like to see the tool you use in a closeup photo. So many photo’s on the pm and not too many people in them…..
Just a thought if you have time and someone is around to do the camera work.
Michael

03-11-2008, 09:24 PM – Mark M.

Personally, I think the concrete floor is to blame.
Harry that was the first thing that came to my mind when you mention the trouble. I have often thought about that problem in regards to my own shop in which the floor never really gets up to temp in the winter months.

03-12-2008, 10:54 AM – Alpacca Fortyfive

I’m Fascinated by this thread, and have been lurking in the background to learn.
I’m reading Moore’s foundations of mechanical accuracy at the moment, and they explain their findings with differential expansion of machines and straight edges at several points. The ones I can remember were:
Camel back straight edges, found to be subject to differential heating and distortion. They were abandoned in favour of box section straight edges.
Everything potentially distorted due to temperature stratification in the air in the work area
Different colour / finish objects absorbed radiant heat from lights, heaters etc, differently.
Temperature gain or loss from the air was logarithmic (as you’d expect), so for particularly accurate jobs, the object had to soak for many hours before work began.
I can’t claim any personal experience – just repeating what I’ve read, hope its of some interest.
Moore’s book is interesting although they did charge me $65 to ship it to Ireland! if the dollar hadn’t been so low, I wouldn’t have bitten.
Looking forward to the next installment
Keith

03-12-2008, 02:57 PM – skadisak

Default precision measuring

Kieth,

You touched on another factor that occured to me and maybe important – the placement of the IR heaters in Harry’s shop and possibly differential heating across the lathe.

Steve Kadisak

Quote Originally Posted by Alpacca Fortyfive View Post

I’m Fascinated by this thread, and have been lurking in the background to learn.

I’m reading Moore’s foundations of mechanical accuracy at the moment, and they explain their findings with differential expansion of machines and straight edges at several points. The ones I can remember were:Camel back straight edges, found to be subject to differential heating and distortion. They were abandoned in favour of box section straight edges.Everything potentially distorted due to temperature stratification in the air in the work areaDifferent colour / finish objects absorbed radiant heat from lights, heaters etc, differently.

Temperature gain or loss from the air was logarithmic (as you’d expect), so for particularly accurate jobs, the object had to soak for many hours before work began.

I can’t claim any personal experience – just repeating what I’ve read, hope its of some interest.

Moore’s book is interesting although they did charge me $65 to ship it to Ireland! if the dollar hadn’t been so low, I wouldn’t have bitten.

Looking forward to the next installment
Keith

03-13-2008, 03:24 AM – rimcanyon

if the dollar hadn’t been so low, I wouldn’t have bitten
Ooh, that hurt. I’m surprised the U.S. economy isn’t roaring along as a result of all the bargains to be had. I can’t pretend to understand economics.-Dave

03-13-2008, 08:57 AM – Alpacca Fortyfive

Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
Ooh, that hurt. I’m surprised the U.S. economy isn’t roaring along as a result of all the bargains to be had. I can’t pretend to understand economics.
-Dave
Sorry for the digression off topic, but the US economy isn’t doing badly. last couple of quarters I heard of, were 5.something% and about 3.8% growth (expressed as annual growth).
Apart from a sub prime credit crunch, that looked like pretty respectable performance for a developed nation, and far from the 2 or more successive quarters of zero or negative growth needed for recession.
There seems to be a real problem with predominantly soft left main stream journalists over reporting bad and under reporting good news when there is a Rep. in the White house, and doing it the other way around under a Dem.
Love the guy or hate him; John Lott has some done some pretty convincing research on media bias, and his website makes interesting reading.
I’m certainly buying more from the US with the exchange rate so much in my favour, but jokes like $65 postage for a book do leave a nasty taste.
Getting back to the “wreck”
I don’t know why the headstock end is reacting so differently, but another thought (guess) that has occured is the big mass of metal supporting the headstock end is both rigid and a heat sink, perhaps the bed is flexing with differential heating and the difference in rigidity of the two supports, or the difference in heat gradient because of them is causing the different readings.
I’m heading into the background again, this thread is far to interesting to risk leading it astray.
Keep up the good work Gents
Keith

03-16-2008, 07:31 PM – peterh5322

“I’m heading into the background again, this thread is far to interesting to risk leading it astray.”
An excellent idea.
Peter (Moderator)

04-04-2008, 10:56 PM – beckley23

For the past few days I’ve been working on the outside face of the inside V way, and for all intents and purposes it is done, but I will make that decision tomorrow after I make up some charts and mull them over. As it stands now there are a few anomalies that are definitely giving me some fits, and one of them is a persistent high spot in the middle of the V way. The problem is such that I can’t tell which side of the V way the highness is on. I think the problem is on the outside face. The inside face spots all the way, and the outside face is spotting on the ends and with the TS end very slightly high according to the level, I think, considering the bubble position is a judgement call. I have checked the way alignments with the level and the King Way Alignment Tool, and will do it again tomorrow. The ways are definitely within .0005″ overall alignment and I think they are a lot closer to .00025″.
The included angle which started out at 65* has changed by 1/2* approx. This change is due to the difficulty of manipulating the straightedge against a very narrow surface, and I more or less expected it. Actually, I’m surprised it wasn’t more.
It’s time to start thinking about the shaping/planing sled.
Harry

04-05-2008, 06:41 PM – beckley23

My post last night was a bit premature, but not too much. I went checking for the anomalies this morning and found a few problems one I knew about another that was a possibility that became reality. The fixes had been put in and the completion of the V way is very near. The readings charts will come later.
First, the problem I knew about. The last 15″ or so of the flat way was a bit high, if you check the chart in my earlier post you will see it. I figured .00025″ on the end of the bed won’t affect the overall accuracy of the machine much, but it was causing major problems with the transverse level reading when checking the scraping progress, and I could not effectively mentally compensate for the difference consistently. As a result that section was scraped into proper alignment with the rest of the way.
The second problem concerns the transverse level checks and the use of a shim on top of the V block to compensate for the height difference between the V block and flat block on the flat way. If the shim got of out of position the tiniest bit, the level readings went askew. I knew of the problem, and had dealt with it, but in the end it was causing problems as I came close to finishing. The solution was to grind a few thou off the flat block. With the block reground, the problem with the gap in the spotting of the rear face of the inside V way was explained. The TS end of the face was still high, and more scraping is/was needed. The spotting gap has alost been completely eliminated, more so than what the picture, which was taken after about 3 scaping cycles, below shows.
In the inital stages of scraping the V way the shim was/is necessary to use on the transverse checks, to get the level to give a usuable bubble position, but as complettion gets very close it can be a major cause of erroneous readings.
A couple of pictures, the first is the level on the blocks with the shim used. You will be surprised by how much the bubble moves with the least movement of the shim. The second picture is the spotting of the rear face from position 5 to the end of the bed. Before, the spotting was between 7 & 8, it is now completely spotted but still needs a few more cycles for completion.
Harry

04-05-2008, 06:59 PM – rimcanyon

Harry, the problem with the shim would not occur if you were using the King Way level – is there a reason that you are still using the master precision level?
-Dave

04-06-2008, 12:43 PM – beckley23

Dave,
I like the KWAT, and I’ll probably make one, but it is not the right tool for this project. The sequence I’m using for this project demands that I establish 2 datum planes that are parallel to each other, and from there I can I can establish the other 2 planes. The first plane I established was the inside flat way, using the methods previously described. If there are any inaccuracies in the flat way as I approach the finish, the only way I can find them is by using the MPL on blocks, and comparing readings. Now, keep in mind that I had a high section starting at station 6, approx., and going to station 8, the end of the bed, of approx .00025″. 2-1/2 tenths is not much, and it’s within the bed tolerances. I could compensate for this when I got to that area on the V way, so I thought.
When I got to the finishing stages on the V way, I was having problems as previously described with the TS end of the bed. I spent most of Friday afternoon chasing this problem, but I kept getting readings were not very consistent. I still had a high section on the V way between stations 3 and 8, although 3-6 were rising and falling, but overall the tendency was to rise. To add to the confusion was the use of the shim on the V block. Ok, I’m setting up the KWAT to see what it shows, it has to be better than what I was doing. Unfortunately, the KWAT basically said I was done, and I knew this wasn’t correct.
Saturday morning, I decided to re-spot the flat way from stations 2-8, and it spotted all the way with a very minor gap between 6 and 7. The gap was a leftover from the 1st scraping cycles on the bed, my straight edge is 48″ long, or else I had differing amounts of blueing on the SE. I know there is a .00025″ high section from 6-1/2- 8, about 11″, from the MPL readings. The MPL is 15″ long, and the left end was on the 1st 4′ scraped section. I decided to do some very careful scraping on that section and get rid of the rise. I was successful, and got the rise down to practically 0, according to the MPL.
With the elimination of the high section, and the regrind of the flat block, I was finally able to get some dependable point-to-point transverse readings with the MPL. The KWAT is very capable of this, with one caveat, and this must be considered; it measures on a triangular base, and one leg will never get to the end of the bed.
There are definitely advantages to the KWAT, and I will use it in subsequent operations, but IMO it is not the tool for this application. There are certain advantages to the MPL that the KWAT doesn’t have. I can use the MPL directly on the flat ways, or on blocks. I can shorten or lengthen the measuring base at will, by moving the blocks closer together, or interposing a long parallel on top of the blocks, none of which can be done with the KWAT.
A word about MPL’s:
The selection of a MPL is very important for this type of project, but the cost is secondary. There are imported MPL’s, with grooved bases, at much lower prices. IMO, the grooved base is a major disadvantage contributing to instabilty when used in the manner I’m using it. I haven’t seen every domestic MPL made, but every one I have seen has a solid base. I bought mine, new, in 1983 for the princely sum of 254.00, and have never regretted the expenditure. I know the prices are approx 600.00(new) now, and I would definitely be looking on “ebay”. I didn’t have any other option in ’83, there are options today, CHOOSE WISELY.
Harry

04-08-2008, 09:54 PM – beckley23

Below are 2 pictures of the leveling charts. The first is the chart using the readings from the MPL. What I’m looking for is consistency in the readings. There are 3 sets of readings, 1 each for of the inside ways and then the transverse readings at each bed station. In case you can’t read some my “chicken scratch” the numbers are in ten thousandths; ie 2=.0002, 10=.0010, etc.. There where other readings not recorded, especially, where I noticed something unusual, and everthing seems to be in agreement. Overall, I’m fairly satisfied with the results, although I’ll study these numbers, especially the numbers for the headstock area, 0-2, on the V way. I’m not to concerned about 2 through 3-1/2, the tailstock will never get there, and the 7-8 section.
On the transverse readings, the flat way is regarded as the reference surface.
The second chart is of the readings using the KWAT at the bed stations that could be measured. The ends of the flat way could not be used, due to the construction of the tool. I also noticed that the tool seems to be rather delicate, as evidenced by the #7 reading. I don’t know if accidently hit it, or if moved of its own accord when I relocated the tool on the bed. I do know the vials will shift under very easily, at least on this particular tool, which may be due to the vial mounts being loose. I’ll have to investigate.
Harry

04-13-2008, 02:05 PM – beckley23

After studying the charts off and on for a few days, I decided that things could be better. The problem was deciding where to start, a little off here is going to affect something there. I didn’t want to remove more than necessary, because that causes more problems than it solves.
I cleaned off the straight edge and applied a very light coating of blueing and spotted all three surfaces, and the answer(s) was/were “staring me in the face”. From the charts, I know that the ends of the flat way are high, but I couldn’t tell if one or both faces of the V way was causing problems. The spottings showed the expected distribution on the flat way, the spotting on the inside face of the V way showed a very good distribution, but the outside face was a different story, and basically confirmed the longitudinal level readings. The course of action was determined; correct the flat way first then work on the outside face, second. Level checks, the most time consuming aspect of this project, would have to be run after every 1 or 2 cycles.
When I quit yesterday, the flat way was basically reading a +2-1/2 across the board, and the V way was reading +2-1/2 from stations 0-3, and the differences have been halved for 3-8, and the transverse checks have confirmed this. I won’t need much more time to finish this part of the project.
The shaping/planing sled design has been roughed out, and construction has started.
Harry

04-14-2008, 08:58 PM – beckley23

Default Much Better

Finished up the inside ways today, and the results are much better than the previous charts show. All the numbers are .XXXX, and are the estimated actual bubble position.

Harry

04-17-2008, 09:58 PM – beckley23

Making some progress on the sled. In the picture below, there is the base and the cross slide, the turret lathe slide tool goes in the 1-3/4″ hole. There is still some work to be done, mill the slot for the cross slide, drilland bore a hole for the nut, plus a few other holes. The Multifil 426 way material has to epoxied to the slides and scraped, if you look closely I’m checking the base with some small strips of the Multifil in the corners, just to make sure it’s right. I’ve got the level on the base to see bad things are; a little scraping of the Multifil should take of the alignments.
The base is 1-1/4″ X 6-5/8″ X 15″ HRS to give you idea of scale.
Harry

04-17-2008, 11:36 PM – Cal Haines

Very interesting. Do you plan to use the sled to finish up the ways on the 10EE?
Cal

04-18-2008, 01:15 AM – beckley23

I plan on using the sled as a shaping/planing tool, using ceramic inserts to remove the bulk of the excess material, and then finish scrape. If this works, I’ve had this idea brewing for quite awhile, it will greatly reduce the amount of scraping. The biggest obstacle are the inserts, they are fragile, at least the ones I use on one of my products are. It may be the geometry has to be changed. I just don’t know, and it’s going to take some experimentation.
Harry

04-18-2008, 01:57 AM – Cal Haines

I assume the slide tool does the actual shaping/planing and the sled acts as the base? I guess this sled will only work on 10EEs?
When you get a chance, could you post a photo or two of the slide tool?
Cal

04-18-2008, 09:53 PM – beckley23

The sled will only work on this EE, it would most likely have to be modified for other EE’s.
Check my post of 12-18, in this topic, about the slide tool.
Harry

04-20-2008, 12:42 PM – beckley23

 Multifil 426 Tape

Garlock Multifil 426 Tape is a teflon material that appears to have bronze dispersed through it. One side is chemically etched for the bonding agent, in my case I’m using 3 M Scotch-Weld 2216 B/A Gray epoxy adhesive. It is a way strip bearing material that greatly reduces the friction between 2 surfaces. The friction reduction is even more-so with the use of lubricants. I use it in the reconditioning process to regain the height loss from wear and scraping on the carriage. I have also used it in the refitting of the cross slide. Don’t make the mistake I made early on, and use it on the bottom of the tailstock, they become very hard to lock in place.

I am attaching a link to Garlock’s website. Turcite and Rulon can also be used, but I have no experience with thosoe products.

http://www.garlockbearings.com/produ…up=19&LangID=2

Below are some pictures of the sled. The first is of the surfaces prepped for the Multifil. Notice on the flat slide the additional scratches/gouges in the surface for increased roughness for the epoxy. The scratches are also in the V slide. The Multifil strips have been marked, the white dot, to identify the etched side. The etched side will wet with water.The second picture is an end view of the sled after the Multifil has been epoxied in the V and flat slides. The wax paper acts as a releae agent between the weighted clamps and the Multifil. I manage to get the epoxy everywhere. I had the wood blocks made for my other EE when I did the same thing several years ago.

The third picture is a front view, and underneath all that mess, is the sled.

This same process will be repeated when I get to the carriage.
Harry

04-20-2008, 03:55 PM – Knguyen

What is the minimal Multifil thickness one can use for rebuilding the way? It seems to be a little too much trouble if you have to mill the saddle to get that thickness requirement before you can glue the Multifil strips on. BTW, Harry, thanks for posting. This certainly will serve as a key reference for the Monarch forum members.
Khanh

04-20-2008, 04:56 PM – beckley23

Multifil is available in .015-.125 thicknesses. I have .030″ which has served all the applications I have encountered, and I have tried to work with that in mind. This stuff is pricey and only available in full rolls, 12″ X 120″ IIRC. I don’t know what the other types are available in, although I seem to recall that Turcite can be obtained in needed quantities from one vendor.
Keep in mind that machining some base material off is a whole lot easier than scraping it off. The amount of metal machined off should be determined before hand, and consideration should be made for the epoxy thickness and scraping allowance when using Multifil, or any of these materials.
The main reason for using the Multifil is to biuld up the height of the carriage, so that the leadscrew and other alignments can be maintained. I’m really not interested in relocating brackets and gearboxes.
I’m using it on the sled because of the ease of scraping, but mostly because of its coefficient of friction. This stuff is like “greased lightning”, compared to metal on metal contact.
I had to do some calculations when I machined the sled to account for the above, and I’ll have to do the same when I get to the carriage.
Multifil scrapes very easily. I do it using hand scrapers, the Biax is to hard to control, IMO, on this stuff. I learned that lesson when I scraped the CK’s saddle, and that took about seconds.
Russ Kepler did an excellent post on the application of Moglice, and it’s a “sticky” here. One of the advantages of Moglice, that I can see, is that you are basically done with scraping after the Moglice has cured. One of the disadvantages is all the front end work that has to be done. I think it’s a draw, IMO. I don’t know how the financial costs compare, but for a couple hundred dollars, I’ve done several machines and still have enough left over for several more.
Harry

04-21-2008, 03:28 AM – M. Moore

Beckley,
This seems like a dumb question to me…. but here goes. What is the scraping/planing sled going to do? I have read the whole thread and I thought you were nearing completion of the scraping process? It seems like everything is now flat and in alignment?
Sorry for being so thick.
Michael

04-21-2008, 09:23 PM – beckley23

Only the inside ways are completed. The sled is made to fit the inside ways. I can mount a cutting tool on it to plane/shape the outside ways. When the sled is completed, I’ll post some pictures, and this will all fall into place.
I am nowhere near being finished; there is still the headstock, tailstock, carriage and cross slide assemblies to work on.
Harry

04-22-2008, 10:15 PM – beckley23

The sled has been finished and tested. It does what it’s supposed to do, but it took some trial and error. One thing I re-learned, is that ceramic inserts don’t take to well to being dragged backward, they’ll chip the cutting edge faster than a heartbeat. Every now and then I need a reminder. I tried a carbide insert with the same results, then I tried a brazed carbide tool bit. That worked reasonably well, until I decided to grind a broader nose radius with a bit of a wiper edge. After thinking about this for awhile, I decided the easiest thing to do was set the stop on the slide tool, and back the tool off after the stroke was completed and push the sled back to the starting point, move it over and reset the tool for the next cut. This was successful, and will be the procedure I’ll use. I considered a clapper arrangement, but decided that it would take up to much space on the end of the slide tool. The rear flat way took about 30 minutes, or less, to do, removing about .002″. Then I’ll start the sequence again after adjusting the stop, for the next pass.
There are some improvements/changes that need to be made. I need to put some wipers on the sled, I’ll borrow the tailstack’s wiper holders for this, and I need to add the oil cups. I think there may be a couple other improvements necessary, but I’ll have to get a firm grasp on them before commenting.
Some more pictures;
Bottom of the sled with the Multifil scraped. Notice the light gray strip on the right side of the flat slide. The Multifil is extremely in this area, and most likely for the entire flat slide, due to a calculating error on my part. I discovered this yesterday, and thought I was going to have to remove the Multifil, mill the edge deeper, and epoxy new Multifil and rescrape, before I did that I milled off approx .0045″ and rescraped, and this is the result. Not the best situation, but this is a one use tool.
The reddish hue in the V slide is the spotting medium. Red is easier to see on a black background than blue.
The rest of the parts for the sled; the cross slide with the slide tool, the cross feed nut and screw, clamps, and the tool block for the slide tool. The screw is 1/2-20 allthread and the nut is steel. The cross slide and nut/screw assembly is made to be reversed in the base as a unit. The nut drops into the hole in the base. It’s a nice slip fit, with very little shake. The tool holder is a 5/8 shank for 3XX TPG inserts.
The next 2 pictures are of the sled assembled. The second picture shows the flat way partially planed.
Continued in the next post.
Harry

04-22-2008, 10:25 PM – beckley23

Continued from the previous post;
Indicating the outer ways.
Outer ways chart, before planing started. After scraping the inner ways, the outer ways don’t look as bad as I first thought.
Another picture of the flat way, you can barely make out the tool marks. They scrape out, I’ve already checked, but I think the cross feed is going to be reduced a little to reduce the peaks and valleys.
Harry

04-22-2008, 11:59 PM – Knguyen

Looks like a great tool. What is holding the sled down ? Looks like it is manually operated by pushing it from one end to the other? What do you think about mounting a grinder instead? Very inspiring indeed.

04-23-2008, 01:14 AM – beckley23

I push it up and down the bed. There is nothing, except the weight of the tool, holding it down, which is one of the issues I have. It almost hit the floor this afternoon, when I pushed a bit too energetically as it came out of the cut and tipped.
I have thought about putting a chain drive on, but after using it today, I think I’m going to abandon the idea. There are a few problems to overcome, and by the time I get them solved, I’ll be done with this part. If the scraping hardened iron didn’t take so long, I wouldn’t have gone to the trouble to build the sled. The little I took off in 30 minutes is about 8 hours scraping, and that makes the sled worthwhile.
I have several thoughts about grinding in my situation, most of them negative. I have several machines in close proximity and containing the dust and grit is a real problem, and it really should be a wet operation, which presents its own set of issues. I also recall reading in one of older posts on PM about grinding cast iron, mainly the need of a rather large diameter wheel.
One of the members here and I had a conversation when I concocted this idea, and he mentioned a toolpost grinder, and I immediately thought of the above and basically ruled it out.
I have thought about a grinding apparatus for lathe beds, but by the time the design work is done and the cost of materials is determined, I think sending it out to people already set up with proper machines would be more cost effective.
Harry

05-01-2008, 01:31 AM – beckley23

The sled has been a real learning experience.
I tried to fit wipers to the sled, but that proved a no go. I used felt, and as long as the wiper was entirely contained on the bed they worked, but by necessity the ends of the sled have to over travel the ends of the bed. The wipers were mounted with a bit of compression, and once the sled end passed the end of the bed, the wipers expanded making it very difficult to get that end back on the bed without breaking the wiper holders or the ceramic insert. They basically acted as a stop, so I abandoned that idea.
I added oilers, but had so-so results.
In the end I used the sled without wipers and it seemed to be better operating dry than with oil. Fortunately it is a one use tool, as the Multifil will most likely have to be replaced due to some chips getting underneath and doing their thing.
I have finished the rear flat way and scraped it in. The results from sled were mixed. I wasn’t satisfied with the surface finish, most likely due to amount of cross feed for each stroke. There was no way I was going to put a straight edge on that surface, before I went over it with the Biax and a stone. I was also disappointed with the flatness, the sled seemed to be following the contour, although flattening it out considerably. There more to scrape than I was expecting, but a lot less than no sled. This operation had to rethought before I got to the front V way.
There was/is a complication that I’m to blame for, which I discovered by a casual glance at the level’s cross vial, which happened to be out by half a bubble. I got it down to about a 1/8 of the bubble, or less. Not the best situation but not a killer either, just makes transverse leveling a bit more touchy. If this was on a lathe without 3 point leveling, this would more touchy, and really should be corrected. The carriage will be scraped to match, so I’m not worried about this aspect. The root of the problem is the cross slide’s slot/way in the base, compounded by the fitting of the Multifil. I just didn’t consider this, and unintended consequences reared its ugly head.
The sled operations on the front V way were revised to reflect what I learned from the rear flat way. The cross feed amount has been/was reduced to .005″ from .008-.012″, the depth of cut stayed the same at .005″, with the final pass reduced to .002″, and the finish is very nice, with the feed lines considerably reduced. I ran and indicator on the shaped/planed inside face of the V way and it was within .001″. The outside face has had one pass completed, but play time is over for a few days.
A few pictures.
Spotting the progress in the attempt to correct the transverse alignment problem. These pictures are 2 separate spottings.
Indicating the slide tool to the “good” section of the inside face of the front V way. Same set up was used for the outside face. Actually in this picture I’m measuring the amount of wear in the face, which is approx .012″. The same set-up was used to indicate the slide tool on the end of the way.
Set up for the travel indicator for the sled’s cross slide.
Continued in the next post.
Harry

05-01-2008, 01:44 AM – beckley23

The wear on the inside face had valleys on each side of the shiny ridge. The top half was about .012″ deep and the bottom half was about .008″ deep. The ridge originally started at station 2 and ran to station 6.
The chart for the rear way. I ran the level readings for the inside ways for verification purposes on the rear flat way. The only reason I can think of for the differences from the previous chart would be temperature differences between the 2 days.

Harry